Catharina van Malabar, SM/PROG - DNA: U2c or N21?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Tuesday, January 12, 2016
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Scared to post again in case my message reproduces itself again :-) Will update the project in a minute.

As Fanie & Ian say - his line to Arriantje is different to Beth's confirming the U2 for Arrianthje, & suggesting that she may not be the biological daughter of Catharina. (But we've yet to confirm that Catharina is N21)

Arriantjie Gabrielsz Van Cathrijn, SM
→ Gerbrecht Boshouwer, SM
her daughter → Johanna Wynands Bezuidenhout, b4c5
her daughter → Magdalena Pretorius, b1c3d4
her daughter → Johanna Adriana Horn, b1c4
her daughter → Geertruy Petronella Johanna van der Linde
her daughter → Martha Maria van Aswegen, a1b2c6d4
her daughter → Martha Maria Susanna Kruger
her daughter → Martha Maria Susanna van der Merwe (Kruger)
her daughter → Sophia Margaretha Lyzea van der Merwe Kotzee
her daughter → Mika van Heerden (Kotzee)
her daughter → Fanie van Heerden, b1c9d3e5f5g2h8i1j2k1
her son

Shirley Paladin's results show that she is haplogroup U2c1.
She is descended from Catharina of Malabar's daughter Catharina.
So think you have Catharina of Malabar's results pegged at U2c1.
Well done all.

That is no small breakthrough for SA genealogy! Thank you Charlette Louise Hoppe and Private User

New test result just in. There have been some issues loading results onto Geni, despite this the preliminary mtDNA results appear to be N21.

The maternal lineage overlaps at or one gen before Maria Catrina Botha b2c2.

The other N21 candidate with a maternal line leading to Catharina van Malabar: Maria Catharina Fitzgerald, e9f1

Whose test result?

mtDNA granny: Cornelia Cornelisse Claassen, SM!
Charlette Louise Hoppe this is what you've been looking for.

So Catharina (Catrijn) van Malabar, SM/PROG Predicted Haplogroup U2c1 or N21

>>mtDNA Descendants on Geni:
*Adriaantje Gabrielsz, SM [U2c1]
**Jan Stephanus van Heerden, (Fanie) y R-FGC39522 mt U2c1 [confirmed by genetic test as U2c1]
**Beth Hawkins [confirmed by genetic test as U2c1]

*Cornelia Cornelisse Claassen, SM [N21]]
**Jaco Botes [confirmed N21 by genetic test]
**Charlette Louise Hoppe [confirmed N21 by genetic test]
**Glynis Van der Watt, N21 [confirmed N21 by genetic test]
**Private [confirmed N21 by genetic test]

*Catharina Cornelisz van Hoorn (Claasens) [U2c1]
**Private User [confirmed by genetic test as U2c1]

Hi Sharon, I feel it's important to highlight that three of the four N21 results have a single MRCA; Maria Catharina Fitzgerald, e9f1 i.e. as it's a single lineage, the MRCA should really be Maria Catharina Fitzgerald, e9f1 not Cornelia Cornelisse Claassen, SM.

The MRCA for Jaco Botes and Maria Catharina Fitzgerald, e9f1 is Maria Catrina Bezuidenhout.

i.e.
*Cornelia Cornelisse Claassen, SM

**Maria Catrina Bezuidenhout
***Jaco Botes

**Maria Catharina Fitzgerald, e9f1
***Charlette Louise Hoppe
***Glynis Van der Watt, N21
***Private

Maria Catrina Bezuidenhout 's baptismal entry is quite clear though: https://media.geni.com/p13/29/63/f9/8c/534448436de61f89/maria_catri...

Vader: Willem Botha, Moeder: Catrina Pyl

This is great! :D

Correction, apologies:

*Catharina Pyl i.e. not Cornelia Cornelisse Claassen, SM.

Hi Drummond - Yes I was thinking about that last night - just wanted to get something up quite fast -especially as Charlette had been working so hard in this area.

What I was trying to think through - and then it got to 11:30pm, so I thought I'd do it the easy way and wait for input from you guys -
is how to show that the two descent lines corroborate each other. On which profile do they converge? I think you're saying above that it is Maria Catrina Botha. So, it's my inclination to show her as the MRCA of them all. ieJaco's descent from her isn't corroborated by him alone.

Hi Sharon, yes, MRCA is Maria Catrina Bezuidenhout. Through her two Bezuidenhout daughters. Which makes it all the more interesting since it's two lines of N21! Decreasing, in my opinion, the likelihood of an NPE further down the line?

Is Marija Botha van Cabo definitely Maria Catrina Botha, b2c2? Just a thought...
http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/exhibits/dm-2949.jpg

As soon as I figure out what that document says, I'll be able to give you a cogent comment:-)
It is definitely the time to start thinking about alternative explanations though - so do explain what you're thinking.
My thoughts are that one of the options is women who bring up a child of their son as their own; and women who bring up an extramarital or pre marital child of their husband.

Finding this all very exciting. Maria Catrina Botha is very definitely the daughter of Catrina Pyl.

Catrina Pyl in NHK, Stellenbosch baptisms is in turn -"Catrina dogter van Abram Bastijaans de moeder Cornelia Cornelisz is gedoopt dr 16 Novembr 1692 als getuiijge Pietter Gerrits met zijn vrouw". (Wife was Adriaantje Gabrielsz).

Strong possibility that Catharina of Malabar raised the children of others as her own.

I was intrigued by the story of poor Abraham Bastiaanz Pijl, quoting from Kees de Boer by Mansell Upham:
On Friday evening of 28 September 1703 Catrijn's son-in-law Abraham Bastiaansz Pyl (married to her daughter Cornelia), was brought soaking wet into the house of the free black Jan Luij van Ceylon by the latter's children who had rescued him out of the Eerste River. Pyl who was made to sit and dry himself that evening before the fire on the understanding that he would spend the night there. Later that night the family was rudely awakened by gurgling and screams. They found Pyl lying facewards on the ground with his throat slit by a knife. The landdrost Pieter Robberts and two heemraden Dirk Coetse and Guilliam du Toit were duly called. On their arrival they found Pyl still alive. His throat had been cut through zoodanig dat de longe-pijp geheel afgesneden was. On asking Pyl what had happened, he had indicated that the wound had been self-inflicted. But after the surgeon Jean Prieur du Plessis had dressed the wound, Pyl could be more clearly heard to confirm two or three times that he had indeed slit his own throat. When asked Why?, he answered simply, and without any further explanation: …Mijn vrouw is er de oorsaak van… . . . succumbed a few days after 4 October 1703.

Poor lad. What a story. Obviously come from a line of very forceful women

Children of Catharina van Malabar:

1. Adriaantje Gabrielsz+11 b. b 13 Nov 1667 [Predicted mtDNA U2c1]
2. Claes Cornelisz van de Caep12 b. b 6 Feb 1673
3. Cornelia Cornelisse+4 b. b 18 Nov 1674 [Predicted mtDNA N21]
4. Aaltie Cornelisz+12 b. b 15 Mar 1676
5. Maria Cornelisz+12 b. b 27 Oct 1678
6. Barent Cornelisz12 b. b 29 Sep 1679
7. Hendrik Claasen12 b. b 26 Dec 1681
8. Catharina Cornelisz+12 b. b 5 Nov 1684, d. bt 1718 - 1719 [Predicted mtDNA U2c1]

DNA testing predicts that Catharina van Malabar's eldest and youngest daughters are U2c1, an Indian subclade of U2. This confirms the designation 'van Malabar'.

Catharina van Malabar, SM/PROG [Predicted Haplogroup U2c1]

*Adriaantje Gabrielsz aka Arriantjie Van Cathrijn, SM [U2c1]
**Jan Stephanus van Heerden, y R-S16265 mt U2c1 [confirmed by genetic test as U2c1]
**Beth Hawkins [confirmed by genetic test as U2c1]
**Cecilia Strauss [confirmed by genetic test as U2c1]

*Catharina Cornelisz, SM [U2c1]
**Shirley Paladin (Bihl) [confirmed by genetic test as U2c1]

-------------------------------------

*Cornelia Cornelisz/Cornelisse aka Cornelia Pyl [Predicted Haplogroup N21]

**Catharina Pyl, b3 [N21]

***Maria Catrina Botha, b2c2 [N21]
****Gerbrecht Breytenbach, b4c1d3 SM [N21]
*****Jaco Botes [confirmed by genetic test as N21]

****Katharina Bezuidenhout, b4c1d1 [N21]
*****Maria Catharina Fitzgerald, e9f1 [N21]
******Charlette Louise Hoppe [confirmed by genetic test as N21]
******Glynis Van der Watt [confirmed by genetic test as N21]
******Rebekka Meyer [confirmed by genetic test as N21]

Note: N21 is most frequently found in the ethnic Malay population.
---------------------------------------

Seems that it this line of investigation needs a fresh twist to help solve the mystery... herewith an OOTB attempt.

As intro - I think we have to put ourselves in their shoes and imagine the lives they led where there was no TV, entertainment, and very little people. Even our smallest towns today, equiped with cellphones, fibre and dstv etc - are larger than those times (and if on farms you only saw other people say once a month+) and I extrapolate that the less you have to do, the less people there are, the more you are going to gossip about others (especially where there are 'differences'), as there is only so much one can talk about the weather and tell the same stories.

I find it extremely unlikely that a brother or sister that was adopted was not constantly reminded thereof by older brothers and sisters - whom would have known at birth! Especially in cases where there were different mothers (originating from different continents here!) and they certainly would have different body features (if they was adopted, there is also the further possibility of different fathers as well!). The other brothers and sisters of such individuals would have constantly reminded them of their status esp when bickering, the church and community would have known, the parents could have treated them differently. They did not have the means and psycology/insight/mindset we have today to treat it as we would today. The simpler one's life, the less stomache for intrigue there is.

Also those days all people had was family and duty. There is the possibility that addition non-biological family members could have been seen as an additional mouth to feed, even only by one partner and then later also resented by the other, and even have been let to fend more for themselves once they reach adulthood and left out when inheriting. All of which would lead to resentment by such children towards their adopted parents and 'family'.

Almost there - just a reminder: the records we have of 'then' are as people was 'registered' and per household - and not according to their genealogy. I believe that given names (up to 3 generations down - chosen based on age at birth of child and avg life expectancy of those times) would be a better proxy for genealogical purposes... especially since it was common practice to name a child after the grandparents (albeit not always in the same set order, but still almost in all cases) especially after doing away with giving them the surname of the father's name. The name became most important and had strong ties/meaning.

OK, so that was my short intro just to get to the following: If a daughter was not a true biological daughter of the mother, then it would have been MORE LIKELY that she would name her daughters after someone other than her non-biological mother. And her daughters would also probably (/more likely) have been kept in the dark as to their maternal grandmother, so that they would have been even less likely when they had many daughters to pick the name (by accident or intentionally) of the mysterious grandmother, and may even pick the names of their true maternal grandmother if they were told her identity. Etc.

Putting that into test here: Catharina van Malabar had 5 daughters. If the U2c1 lines and the N21 line can be taken as correct, then we have two U2c1 daughters and one N21 daughter of Catharina van Malabar.

The summary of the U2c1 daughters named Catharina:

1/10 daughters

(Arriantje - no daughter named CATHARINA)

The summary of the N21 daughter:

1/4 daughters named Catharina

The summary of the yet tested daughters:

0/7 daughters named Catharina

The summary of the U2c1 granddaughters from daughters only:

0/15

The summary of the N21 granddaughters from daughters only:

2/8

The summary of the yet tested granddaughters from daughters only:

0/9

This gives strong indication that the current N21 line would be the more logical biological line.

The above arguments/summaries would futhermore hold true if there were two separate U2c1 and N21 lines not converging on Catharina van Malabar and the two or more(!!) maternal mtDNA grandmothers had different names.

The above can of course be expanded to the sons as well, but because we will never have their or their descendant's mtDNA (to validify here 'towards' Catharina) I left that for the more diligent.

Oh lastly, I am not sure if I am the only one picking it up, but it seems that the investigations here are focussing predominantly on a N21 adoption/error but for totality it would be better to look at the U2c1 angle too (with all the previous arguments in this tread in mind x2). So I am not picking sides here, just trying to balance the scales with the investigation, and when I did a quick scan it actually seemed that the N21 lines are making more sense to start with, at least to me and even so slightly, but worth stating.

Good attempt Jan, thanks! A balanced outlook is key, agreed. What do you say about the 'van Malabar' indian link to the Indian mtDNA group U2c1. Seems to confirm an Indian origin for Catharina van Malabar.

I agree with Alex that u2c1 and "van Malabar" make for the most logical "origine de nom". There are 23 u2c1 results on haplogroup.org and the place of origin varies very little; Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Myanmar (excluding South Africa and Zimbabwe for obvious reasons). We're definitely looking at a South Asian origin, as opposed to a South East Asian origin for u2c1.

When I first approached Corney Keller about this issue 31/07/2016 my opinions were that 1. either we have an amalgamation of more than one Catharina. She's referred to as Catharina of Batavia, the Malabar Coast, Bengal and the Coromandel Coast on the various source records or 2. that Abraham Pijl's Cornelia Cornelisse isn't the same Cornelia as in 1674 baptism.

Corney's opinion at the time was that those two situations were unlikely and that, more likely, BOTH the Beth Hawkins, and the Hoppe & van der Watt lines need revisiting.

Considering all of the above, and the amount of interest generated by this topic, I feel that Corney's advice is ultimately the best advice. Let us gather as much primary evidence as we can, for both lines (u2c1 and N21), until we can prove categorically that the lines converge on Catharina (i.e. no conclusive leaps and clearly delineate where we have evidence and where not).

I feel like a "Descendants of Catharina van Malabar" project would be a great idea, and the perfect place to collate all of the proofs underpinning this discussion.

Good idea Drummond - I'll create it.

In the back of my mind - and in my own tree - 'van ' Anything does not mean the DNA originates from that Anything, merely that the ship set sail from there.

The DNA needs to confirm the 'van ... ' designation before concluding a progenitor's origin. In the case of Catharina van Malabar the geographic designatiin and mtDNA haplogroup support one another rather nicely.

Still, care should be taken when conflicting DNA results are reported. Time will tell...

I received a FTDNA notification of another U2c1 match. Reginald Horne Private who is maternally related to Catharina van Malabar through her daughter Maria Cornelisz, SM Maria Willemse, SM also tested U2c1.

That means that 3 of Catharina van Malabar's daughters have now been confirmed as U2c1:
Adriaantje Gabrielsz, SM
Catharina Cornelisz van Hoorn (Claasens)
Maria Willemse, SM

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