Confusion re: Engeltje Cornelisz van der Bout

Engeltje Cornelisz van der Bout, SM/PROG

I did not look at the time stamp for the discussions, but it could be that at first it was 1a and some mutations was not identified at that stage, but afterwards some mutations was classified and changed the Haplogroup to 1c, but the project was not updated accordingly.

That was my first thought, Private User. Typos happen too, tho.
Piet Retief Venter and Christelle Horne Viljoen - help!

Private User - that's fantastic news! And thankyou for sharing - I'll start the updating and Discussions now.

This time of DNA testing corroborating Genealogy is sooooo exciting!

I did not test beyond U5.

Thanks Christelle. Do you have the rest of your motherline? It's only showing to your grandmother on Geni?

I sent an email to Dr. Thea de Wet, asking for more information. Haven't heard back yet. Might anyone have access to FAMILIA 48 (4) 2011 pp. 171-176 for reference?

Sharon Doubell - grandmother named Johannes Christoffel "Stoffelina" Swanepoel, e3f8?

Sharon Doubell on a different note. MyHeritage has the option of loading your DNA and then it compare it to other MyHeritage users who uploaded their DNA, but that is only Autosomal/Family Finder.

But I am not to happy about their Terms and conditions.

Yes, that's Christelle's granny.

C.Barry we're holding thumbs that Geni will do this sometime soon as well.

C Barry, we have a group on FTDNA:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/cape-dutch/about/background

Hi Corrie Drummond and Sharon Doubell - I refer to the differences in the mtDNA haplo, which can be traced back to Engeltje vd Bout. I was relying on memory when I wrote U5a1a, but when I checked later on I discovered that a researcher at the University of Pretoria had classified my haplotype as U5a1c1. So, officially my mtDNA haplo (and the haplotype of Engeltje, by 'triangulation') is U5a1c1. I apologize for my inaccuracy when I mentioned U5a1a, to start with :-)

Thanks Piet for clearing that up - perfectly understandable.

OKay, I've updated - and also added a note on: Anna Maria Jacoba Grootschel, SM/PROG

Yes, the FTDNA group is a good one - I use a lot here.

*use IT a

Thea and I communicated years ago. I will try to find the correspondence.

Christelle, you are also one of my Family Finder matches on FTDNA.

Ons is :-)

OK - I am also related about 3-4 generations apart but according to all 32 atDNA matches it results in about 6-9 "Geni lines" apart. Having read this discussion, I think you missed the important point made by Private User that the grandmother has a 'male' name. Upon further scrutiny I do not have faith in that line, in the sense that the DVN number is not consistent with SAF v14 p 443 and if it actually is, the parents of Johannes Christoffel is not correct. Either way, I believe the line is incorrect. U5 is a much more common designation than most, so it could easily have been another female prog. I urge you to look at the line more closely.

My grandmother was named Johannes Christoffel Hattingh. Her twin, also female (to my knowledge and according to family communication), was named Johannes Michiel. My aunt was also named Johannes Christoffel Swanepoel. This information is correct, according to all documentation I have gathered, including my grandfather's Bible.

Geni is still tweaking the atDNA match descriptions, Jan, but you need to give us the specific profiles you are referencing as matching so we can follow what you're saying. Do you mean your relationship to Engeltje Cornelisz van der Bout or Christelle?

DVN are often wrong and increasingly out of date, and as this is an mtDNA question, I don't think the DVN - a paternal reference system - is pertinent?

You also seem to have been referring to a merge conflict problem, rather than an issue with Christelle's actual line; and you seem to me to have resolved it. Is that the case, and are you happy with Christelle's line to Engeltjie now?

Hi Sharon, I think we solved Christelle's line already - was not a merge confilict issue. It was not wrong, just needed some tweaking as some profiles were not attached anymore. DVN is very relevant for South Africa but I guess this is not the place to discuss it.

Okay great.

Another U5 corroboration of Engeltje Cornelisz van der Bout, SM/PROG 's MtDNA from

Private Gerhardus Cornelius Hendrik Viljoen
→ Anna Magrietha Swanepoel Viljoen
his mother → David Christiaan Dirk Swanepoel, b7c2d1e6f4g2
her father → Johannes Hermanus Swanepoel, b7c2d1e6f4
his father → Stephanus Johannes Marthinus Swanepoel, b7c2d1e6
his father → Helena Magdalena Pelser Swanepoel, b2c5d3
his mother → Petrus Cornelius Pelser Peltzer, b2c5
her father → Engela Catharina Zaaijman Pelser, a1b1c5
his mother → Anna Maria Koopman
her mother → Engeltje Cornelisz van der Bout, SM/PROG
her mother

Sharon, this path you posted yesterday is not correct. You seem to have gone off the maternal line.

:-( Sorry Christelle, of course:-) - I didn't even look at it when I cut and pasted the line. He must have more than one line to Engeltje. He is her mtDNA descendant.

Engeltjie

Catherina Koopman

Maria du Plooy

Maria Johanna Hattingh (Botha)

Catharina Jacoba Hattingh

Maria Johanna Aletta Pretorius, b11c2d1e1

Maria Johanna Aletta Catharina Hattingh, b3c7d1e6f9g5

Johannes Christoffel "Stoffelina" Swanepoel, e3f8 (female)

Anna Swanepoel

It goes through a different daughter of Engeltjie's:
Catharina Koopman, SM
than everybody else's:
Anna Maria Koopman

I wonder if just U5 is enough to use as triangulation?

The "he" that you refer to is my brother, so his mitochondrial line and mine are identical. If you review the Cape Dutch DNA Stamouer Project, you will see the mt progenitor groupings based on HVR1 and HVR2 mutations. I am grouped under Engeltje U5a1c1 although my HVR2 mutations are not listed (because I tested before HVR2 was added). A number of my matches have tested further to U5a1c1a.

Well that seems pretty definitive, Christelle. I'm going back to school next week - so might not have the time to give it what it needs - but this seems to me that it pins Engeltjie's mtDNA.

Hi Christelle, Sharon,

My wife and Piet Retief Venter are descendants of Engeltjie though daughter Anna Maria Koopman whereas Christelle and brother are descendants of Engeltjie through Catharina Koopman.

That still leaves three sisters to research/test:
Francina Koopman
Matthyn Koopman
Johanna Carelse van den Burgh

My wife has 28 HVR1 (U5) matches on FTDNA quite a few of whom have clear South African links (van Huyssteen, van Zyl etc) incl. Dr. Thea de Wet mentioned above.

I agree that we can confirm Engeltjie as U5 and define later once further HVR1, HVR2 and CR matches are found i.e. Confirmed Haplogroup U5, Predicted Haplogroup U5a1c1 or something to that effect?