Jeffrey Ferris, of Greenwich - The Ancestors and Origins of Jeffrey Ferris (c.1610-1666)

It is too bad that Robert Shirley, the Right Honorable Earl Ferrers, is no longer around. Being a descendant of Ann Ferrers and Robert Shirley of Tamworth, I bet he knew some Ferrers family history. And, he probably knew any living Ferrers descendants. Perhaps he had some children who know the Ferrers family connections and stories. I wonder if they own "The Earl Ferrers" pub in London.

Robert Washington Shirley (1929-2012), 13th Earl Ferrers, wrote a book called "Whatever Next?: Reminiscences of a Journey Through Life," by Earl Ferrers (2012). https://books.google.bs/books?id=FvCtAwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcov...

In a part of the Preface titled "Family" he describes his parents, wife, children and grandchildren. His male children are Robert (b.1952) and Andrew (b.1965), and they have two sons each. Whether Robert Washington Shirley (1929-2012) is a direct descendant of the Robert Shirley who married Ann Ferrers in 1688 and succeeded to the title of Tamworth I am not sure. The Shirley family might also have documents from that period.

In Chapter 2 he describes the early history of the Shirley family in England including their interplay with the Ferrers, including the inheritance of Tamworth in 1688. I suspect his family has a very good knowledge of the Ferrers family in the late 1500's and early 1600's.

Also see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Shirley,_13th_Earl_Ferrers

Robert William Saswalo Shirley (b.1952) is the son and current successor to his father Robert Washington Shirley (1929-2012) as the 14th Earl Ferrers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Shirley,_14th_Earl_Ferrers

Robert Shirley is a cofounder of Ruffer LLP. https://www.ruffer.co.uk/?

Bloomberg lists him as "Mr. Viscount Tamworth," a managing director. The title Viscount Tamworth may no longer be appropriately used since his father's death and his succession as Earl.
https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?priv...

He may know the name of a currently living male Ferrers descendant of the 12th and 13th century Ferrers who were the Earls of Derby. Like his father, I'll bet he knows some family history.

The Ferrers-Shirley Relationship

The following is what I understand to be the relationship between the Shirleys (Earls Ferrers) and Ann Ferrers who inhereited Tamworth in 1680 when her grandfather, John Ferrers (1629-1680) died. (Ann Ferrers' father, Humphrey Ferrers, drowned in 1678 before he could inherit Tamworth, thus it went to Ann.)

In short, Ann Ferrers married the eldest son, Robert Shirley (1673-1699), of Robert Shirley (1650-1717) and Elizabeth Washington (d.1693). The father Robert Shirley (1650-1717) was created Earl Ferrers and Viscount Tamworth in 1711, after his eldest son and the husband of Ann Ferrers, Robert (1673-1699), had died. Therefore, when Robert the father (1650-1717), the 1st Earl Ferres, died in 1717, the title of Earl Ferrers went to his eldest surviving son, Washington Shirley (1677–1729) who became the 2nd Earl Ferrers. The father Robert Shirley (1650-1717) gave the title Viscount Tamworth to Ann Ferrers' son Robert Shirley (1692-1714). When Ann Ferrers' son died eary, the title of Viscount Tamworth went to Washington Shirley (1677-1729), the remaining eldest surviving son of Robert Shirley (1650-1717), the 1st Earl Ferrers.

Robert Shirley (1650-1717), 1st Earl Ferrers and Viscount Tamworth in 1711

Robert Shirley (1673-1699), 1st son (also husband of Ann Ferrers)

Washington Shirley (1677–1729), 2nd son (became 2nd Earl Ferrers and Viscount Tamworth)

Robert Shirley (1692-1714), Ann Ferrers' son and Viscount Tamworth (from his grandfather Shirley (1650-1717))

Tracing the Shirleys who then inherited the title of Earl Ferrers becomes more complex because the title did not follow a straight line of descent, rather it passed from brother to brother at one point in time.

Nevertheless, the current 14th Earl Ferrers, Robert William Saswalo Shirley (b.1952), does trace his ancestry directly back to the 1st Earl Ferrers, Robert Shirley (1650-1717). That 1st Earl Ferrers was the father-in-law of Ann Ferrers, who had inherited Tamworth and who had married his eldest son. Therefore, the current 14th Earl Ferrers would not likely share any Ferrers DNA inherited directly from the original Ferrers who were the Earls of Derby.

But still, the current 14th Earl Ferrers, Robert Shirley (b.1952), would likely know the Ferrers family history well. After all, he is an English aristocrat who likely takes pride in his heritage. His title as Earl Ferrers would give rise to some obligation to know the Ferrers family history. And, his earlier title of Viscount Tamworth (which had also been held by Ann Ferrers' son) would give rise to some obligation to know the history of Tamworth and likely to particiapte in local events at times. And, again, he seems likely to know any living direct male descendants of the Ferrers who were the Earls of Derby. Since his father was a life member of the House of Lords (and one of its most popular members), he may also know the history of the interchangeable use of the surnames Ferrers and Ferris.

See the following:

Robert Shirley (1650-1717), 1st Earl Ferrers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Shirley,_1st_Earl_Ferrers

Robert Shirley (1673-1699), husband of Ann Ferrers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Shirley_(FRS)

Robert Shirley, Viscount Tamworth (1692-1714), son of Ann Ferrers and Robert Shirley (1673-1699) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Shirley,_Viscount_Tamworth

and History of Parliament http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1690-1715/member/sh...

Although the current 14th Earl Ferrers, Robert William Saswalo Shirley (1952—), is not in a direct Y-DNA line of descent from the early Earls of Derby, he is the 18th great grandson of William Ferrers (1372-1445). William Ferrers was the 5th Lord Ferrers of Groby. The following is the line of descent which also appears in the GEDCOM file available at http://sites.rootsmagic.com/Ferris-Ferrers/index.php

Sir William Ferrers (1372—1445)
Philippa Clifford (1374—)

Henry Ferrers (1394—1463)
Isabel de Mowbray (1400-1452)

Elizabeth Ferrers (1419-1483)
Sir Edward Grey (1415-1457)

John Grey (1432—1461)
Elizabeth Woodville (1437-1492)

Thomas Grey (1451-1501)
Cecily Bonville (1460-1529)

Mary Grey (1491-1538)
Walter Devereux (1488-1558)

Richard Devereux (1513-1547)
Dorothea Hastings (-)

Walter Devereux (1541-1576)
Lettice Knollys (1543-1634)

Robert Devereux (1565-1601)
Frances Walsingham (—1631/2)

Lady Dorothy Devereux (—1636)
Sir Henry Shirley (-1632/3)

Sir Robert Shirley (1623-1656)
Catherine Okeover (-1672)

Earl Robert Shirley (1650-1717)
Elizabeth Washington (-1693)

Laurence Shirley (1693-1743)
Anne Clarges (1695—1782]

Walter Shirley (1726—1786)
Henrietta Maria Phillips (-1792)

Reverend Walter Shirley (1768-)
Alice Newenham (-)

Rt. Rev. Walter Augustus Shirley (1797-1847)
Maria Waddingten (-1859)

Reverend Walter Waddingten Shirley (1828—1866)
Philippa Frances Emilia Knight (-1902)

Earl Walter Knight Shirley (1864—1937)
Mary Jane Moon (-1944)

Earl Robert Walter Shirley (1894—1954)
Hermione Justice Morley (-1969)

Earl Robert Washington Shirley (1929-2012)
Annabel Mary Carr (-)

Earl Robert William Saswalo Shirley (1952—)

The following recap of the male children, grandchildren and great grandchildren of George Thomas Ferrers (1791-1848) contains some new descendants for this line of Ferrers from Henry Ferrers (1549-1633), the Antiquarian. They appear to have been born in Hammersmith, London which is a couple miles west of Westminster.

(1) George Joseph Ferrers (1819-?). No marriage or children yet identified.

(2) Thomas John Ferrers (1821-1888) Died in New Zealand. Need to check records in New Zealand for children.

(3) Richard Vincent Ferrers (1823-1895) London
(a) Ernest Walter Ferrers (1847-1891) London
(i)Walter Ernest Ferrers (1883-?) London
(ii) Edward Joseph Ferrers (1886-?) London

(4) Edmund Ferrers (1824-?) London to Australia.
(a) Edmund Ferrers (1845-?) Died in Australia
(b) George Ferrers (1847-?)

(5) Bernard Ferrers (1829-1863). London to New Zealand (a daughter died in New Zealand)
(a) Bernard Ferrers (1851-?)
(b) Charles Ferrers (1856-1868)
(c) John Ferrers (1858-1867)

See "Baddesley Clinton, its manor, church, and hall," Rev. Henry Norris (1887), Appendix VII, p. 145. https://books.google.com/books?id=MycVAAAAQAAJ&q=Appendix+Vii#v...

The above are in GEDCOM format at http://sites.rootsmagic.com/Ferris-Ferrers/index.php

Ferrers-Ferris DNA and Richard III

Private User and Erica Howton:

Would it be possible to determine if Jeffrey Ferris (c.1610-1666) was descended from the Ferrers, Earls of Derby, by comparing his DNA (i.e., a direct Y-DNA descendant) to that of King Richard III (1452-1485)?

King Edward I (1239-1307) was King Richard's 7th great grandfather.

King Edward I was also William Ferrers' (1332-1371) 2nd great grandfather.

Most of the traceable Ferrers in the late 16th and early 17th centuries who are most likely to have been the immediate ancestors of Jeffrey Ferris descended from Thomas Ferrers (1395-1459; of Groby & Tamworth) and John Ferrers (b.1413; of St. Albans). Thomas and John were the great grandchildren of William Ferrers (1332-1371) and, therefore, the 5th great grandchildren of King Edward I. If Jeffrey Ferris was descended from William Ferrers (1332-1371), King Edward I would have been Jeffrey's approximately 14th great grandfather, plus or minus a couple of generations.

In addition, Sir John Ferrers (1452-1485; of Tamworth) was the 4th great grandson of King Edward III (1312-1377) and the 4th great grandson of William Ferrers (1332-1371).

The male-line research at the University of Leicester into the DNA of Richard III led to several living but anonymous male-line relatives who were related to King Edward III who was Richard's 2nd great grandfather. https://www.le.ac.uk/richardiii/science/relatives.html

Some clarification re Richard III DNA Private User and Erica Howton

My purposes in suggesting the above exercise may require less complex analysis than it suggests. First, simply determining that there is no way Jeffrey Ferris could be related to King Edward I would tell us to look somewhere else for Jeffrey's ancestors. The flip side of that might confirm there is a possibility of such a relationship and, therefore, a continued search in the direction of the Ferrers, Earls of Derby, is warranted. A similar analysis with respect to King Edward III might tell us which part of the Ferrers tree to explore. I am not suggesting multi-year test of DNA in a university lab.

Below are the relevant lines of descent as I have them. You can see the sources and/or download the GEDCOM file from http://sites.rootsmagic.com/Ferris-Ferrers/index.php

***********
King Edward I (1239-1307) to Sir William Ferrers (1332-1371)

King Edward I (1239-1307) &
Eleaner of Castile (1241—1290)

Joan ef Acre (1272-1307) &
Gilbert de Clare (1243—1295)

Elizabeth de Clare (1295—1360) &
Theobold de Verdun (1278—1316)

Isabel de Verdun (1315—1349) &
Henry de Ferrers (1303—1343)

Sir William Ferrers (1332-1371)

***********
King Edward I (1239-1307) to King Richard III (1452—1485)

King Edward I (1239—1307) &
Eleanor of Castile (1241-1290)

Joan of Acre (1272-1307) &
Gilbert de Clare (1243—1295]

Elizabeth de Clare (1295—1360) &
John de Burgh (1290-1313)

William de Burgh (1312—1333) &
Matilda of Lancaster (1310—1377)

Elizabeth de Burgh (1332-1363) &
Lionel of Antwerp Plantagenet (1338-1368)

Philippa Plantagenet (1355—1382) &
Edmund de Mortimer (1352—1381)

Roger de Mortimer (1374-1398) &
Alianore de Holand (1373-1405)

Anne de Mortimer (1388—1411) &
Richard of York (1375—1415)

Richard Plantagenet (1411-1460)
Cecily Neville (1415—1495)

King Richard III (1452—1485)

**********
Sir William Ferrers (1332-1371) to Sir John Ferrers (1452-1485)

Sir William Ferrers (1332-1371) &
Margaret de Ufford (1333-1368)

Henry Ferrers (1355-1388) &
Joan De Poynings (1356-1394)

Sir William Ferrers (1372-1445) &
Philippa Clifford (1374-)

Sir Thomas Ferrers (1395-1459) &
Elizabeth Freville (1398-)

Sir Thomas Ferrers (1422-1498) &
Anne Hastings (1438-1479)

Sir John Ferrers (1452-1485)

**********
King Edward III (1312—1377) to Sir John Ferrers (1452-1485)

King Edward III (1312—1377) &
Philippe d'Avesnes (1311-1369)

Lionel of Antwerp Plantagenet (1338-1368)
Elizabeth de Burgh (1332—1363)

Philippa Plantagenet (1355-1382) &
Edmund de Mortimer (1352-1381)

Elizabeth de Mortimer (1371—1417) &
Thomas de Camoy (1360-1421)

Alice de Camoy (1407-1455) &
Leonard Hastings ((1397-1455)

Anne Hastings (1438-1479) &
Sir Thomas Ferrers (1422—1498)

Sir John Ferrers (1452-1485)

What is the haplogroup for King Richard lll?

What is the haplogroup for the Ferrers?

What is the haplogroup for the Ferrises?

That reminds me. Geni says Ann? Buckner is my 10th gg and probably not a Ferrers.

Have you run across the Thomas Ferrers alias Turner & Marie Hunt family in the research ?

It appears that Jeffrey Ferris' Haplogroup is "predicted" as I-M223. That is based on three Ferris descendant DNA entries on FTDNA. Each of those three entries for people claiming descent from Jeffrey are identical with only one or two one digit variations on one or two markers. (I am no geneticist, so my description may be inadequate.) You can see those detailed Ferris DNA entries at the very bottom of the following page on FTDNA: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ferriss?iframe=yresults

I have looked for, but not found, a DNA entry for the Ferrers. That is why I was trying to trace a proven line of Ferrers down to a Ferrers who may still be living. The closest I have come so far is Edward Joseph Ferrers (1886-?) London. See my note above on 12/10/2017 at 6:26PM.

I am not sure what Haplogroup was found for Richard III or what Haplogroup might have been projected for Edward I or Edward III.

I have not seen a Thomas and Mary Ferrers born around 1616 but I will keep my eyes open. The records for many of the Ferrers during this priod seem to have vanished.

The patriarch of the Tamworth Ferrers was Thomas Ferrers (1492-1498). Thomas was not an uncommon name among the descendants. The last Thomas I have in that line was born in 1567 to Humphrey Ferrers (1540-1608) and Anne Bradbourne (d.1599). But around 1600 there were a number of unknown sons born into this line of Ferrers. (See the chart on p. 27 of the Origins of Jeffrey Ferris.

I noticed the name Thomas Parris (1578-1639) as the father of Thomas Ferrers (1616-1661). I have seen the surname Parris returned once or twice when searching for Ferrers, probably because I asked for variant names. Parris could be a mistranscription of an entry for Farris. I believe the Parris name I saw was for Devon or Cornwall. The Ferris (and variants) name seems to have become a more common derivative of Ferrers earlier in Devon than in London and the more northern counties. I beleive (based on the anecdotal information I have seen and traced) that the Ferris descendants in Devon and Cornwall are from Ralph de Ferrers (born c.1135) of Bere Ferrers in Devonshire. Ralph de Ferrers may be descended from Henri de Ferrier (1036-1088) or perhaps a brother of Henri.

R Riegel Are you recommending we attempt to contact University of Leicester? In regards to research for relatives of King Edward I and King Richard III to determine Jeffrey Ferris is related to a specific branch of Ferrers? Just wanted to clarify what I read.

Private User I think it may be a bit premature to contact the University of Leicester just yet. Although my opinion on that could change during the ensuing weeks. The idea did cross my mind, however.

It would be nice to find someone online who understands DNA, who perhaps has followed the Richard III DNA saga and who might be able to offer some guidance. For example, I saw a thread about the Richard III research on FTDNA Family Finder. Some knowledgeable DNA people there might have suggestions. http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=41958

At the same time, finding a living male descendant of the Ferrers, Earls of Derby would still be the best DNA route, so far as I understand the genetics involved.

While it is fresh on my mind, it seems that tracing Richard III's DNA involved extensively tracing his mitochondrial DNA.

The mitochondrial DNA in the line down from King Edward I (1239-1307) to King Richard III (1452—1485) would include Joan ef Acre (1272-1307) [who married Gilbert de Clare (1243—1295)] and Elizabeth de Clare (1295—1360) [who married John de Burgh (1290-1313)].

Those same mothers, Joan of Acre and Elizabeth de Clare are in the line of descent from King Edward I to Sir William Ferrers (1332-1371), except that Elizabeth de Clare was married to Theobold de Verdun (1278—1316) for the line of descent to Sir William Ferrers. Elizabeth de Clare had married John de Burgh in 1308 and then Theobold de Verdun in 1315.

I corrected my “maybe Ferrers” upper tree based on your Perrers comment. That’s a different family. Mine (of Bucks) is oddly enough an AKA Turner family. Just throwing that in. I think the Y haplogroup was also identified for Richard lll but the trace was through his aunt. And they found two breaks in pedigrees.

I forgot to include in the descent lines above the one from King Edward III (1312—1377) to King Richard III. It appears below along with a repeat for comparison purposes of the descent from King Edward III to Sir John Ferrers (1452-1485).

**************

King Edward III (1312—1377) to King Richard III (1452-1485)

King Edward III (1312-1377) &
Philippe d'Avesnes (1311-1369)

Lionel of Antwerp Plantagenet (1338-1368) &
Elizabeth de Burgh (1332-1363)

Philippa Plantagenet (1355-1382) &
Edmund de Mortimer (1352-1381)

Roger de Mortimer (1374-1398) &
Alianore de Holand (1373-1405)

Anne de Mortimer (1388-1411) &
Richard of York (1375-1415)

Richard Plantagenet (1411-1460) &
Cecily Neville (1415-1495)

King Richard III Plantagenet (1452-1485)
************

King Edward III (1312—1377) to Sir John Ferrers (1452-1485)

King Edward III (1312—1377) &
Philippe d'Avesnes (1311-1369)

Lionel of Antwerp Plantagenet (1338-1368)
Elizabeth de Burgh (1332—1363)

Philippa Plantagenet (1355-1382) &
Edmund de Mortimer (1352-1381)

Elizabeth de Mortimer (1371—1417) &
Thomas de Camoy (1360-1421)

Alice de Camoy (1407-1455) &
Leonard Hastings ((1397-1455)

Anne Hastings (1438-1479) &
Sir Thomas Ferrers (1422—1498)

Sir John Ferrers (1452-1485)
*************

Glad I could help with the Thomas Ferrers issue.

Your comment about tracing Richard III through his aunts is interesting. The sisters of his mother, Cecily Neville (1415-1495), were Joan, Anne, Katherine, and Eleanor.

But Cecily Neville had two step-sisters from her mother's (Joan de Beaufort) prior marriage to Robert de Ferrers (1373-1396). Those step-sisters were Elizabeth (1378--1434) and Mary (1379-1458) Ferrers.

In addition, Joan Beaufort's (1379-1440) father was John of Gaunt (1340-1399), another son of King Edward III. If I recall, there has been historically some question about John of Gaunt's pedigree.

Private User Here is a bit of a shot in the dark.

Richard Ferrers on LinkedIn is a Research Data Analyst at the Australian National Data Service (ANDS) in Melbourne, Australia. (If he is on LinkedIn, he may be on Facebook as well.) In any case, a descendant of Henry Ferrers (1549-1633), the Antiquarian, moved to Australia in the mid 1800's. His name was Edmund Ferrers (1824-?). Edmund had sons Edmund (1845-?) and George (1847-?). (See my note above on 12/10/2017 at 6:28 PM.) I have not been able to trace Edmund Ferrers' (b.1824) descendants in Australia but those searches up to the present day do not return many results suggesting there are not that many Ferrers in Australia. Thus, the odds increase that this Richard Ferrers in Melbourne may be a descendant.

Perhaps you could try to find him and strike up a conversation about family history.

Richard Ferrers on LinkedIn: https://au.linkedin.com/in/richard-ferrers-6030b127

Shirley DNA and Shirley Family Association

The Shirley Family Association has a fairly extensive web site which also coordinates a Shirley Family Y-DNA Project on FTDNA. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Shirley?iframe=ycolorized

Of course, the 1st Earl Ferrers was Robert Shirley (1650-1717) who was the 8th great grandson of Henry Ferrers (1394-1463). (See my note above on 12/9/2017 at 2:55 PM with this line of descent.) When I looked at the Shirley Y-DNA Project, I was surprised to see one entry with an I-M223 Haplogroup, the same as predicted for Jeffrey Ferris.

Most of the Haplogroup entries for this Shirley Y-DNA project were for I-M253, R-M269 E-M35 and E-L117. Most of the E-L117 and E-M35 Haplogroup entries were under a group labelled "11. Shirleys of Kidlington Eng., Kilkenny Ire..."

While not a direct Y-DNA connection, perhaps someone familiar with DNA haplogroups could interpret this Shirley information in some meaningful way relating to the Shirleys' descent from Henry Ferrers (1394-1463) and Jeffrey Ferris' I-M223 Haplogroup.

Shiley Family Association Main Page: http://www.shirleyassociation.com/NewShirleySite/index2.html

Shirley Family DNA Project: http://www.shirleyassociation.com/NewShirleySite/DNA/DNA.html

Non-Member Research Area: http://www.shirleyassociation.com/NewShirleySite/NonMembers/nonmemb...

Shirleys and their Manors (including Chartley & Tamworth): http://www.shirleyassociation.com/NewShirleySite/NonMembers/England...

For example, could any of the Shirley haplogroups noted above ( I-M253, R-M269 E-M35 and E-L117) share a common ancestor (i.e Henry Ferrers, 1394-1463) with Jeffrey Ferris in haplogroup I-M223?

And, if they could share a common ancestor, would it be possible to determine the generation at which they shared that common ancestor?

Private User If you do contact Richard Ferrers of Melbourne, Australia, I thought the following records might be useful in a conversation.

New South Wales Passenger Lists Transcription
Passage type Unassisted
Record set New South Wales Passenger Lists
Sex Male
First name(s) Thomas John
Last name Ferrers
Year 1852
Vessel Pauline
Departure port Port Victoria
State New South Wales
Country Australia
First name(s) as transcribed Thos John
Age -
Nationality/where born -
Arrival port Port Jackson
Arrival year 1852
Arrival date 08 Jul 1852
Seaman or passenger Passenger
Archive State Records Authority of New South Wales
Year range 1899
Category Immigration & Travel
Subcategory Passenger lists
Collections from Australia & New Zealand

First name(s) Henry Woods
Last name Ferrers
Sex Male
Birth year 1863
Birth place Melbourne
Father's name William
Mother's name Emily Woods
Registration number 3635
State Victoria
Country Australia
Record set Victoria Births

First name(s) Edmond
Last name Ferrers
Year 1876
Date 5 February 1876
Residence Toowoomba
Type Intestacy
Page 272
Court Brisbane
State Queensland
Country Australia
Record set Queensland Intestacies & Wills

Victoria Wills & Probate Transcription
Record set Victoria Wills & Probate
First name(s) Crompton G
Sex Unknown
Last name Ferrers
Grant year 1889
Death year 1888
Occupation Esquire
State Victoria
Country Australia
Nature of grant PLS
Country of residence England
Death date 6 Nov 1888
Grant date 23 May 1889
To whom committed -
File number 39/115
Order link VPRS 28/P0, unit 480;
Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers)

Victoria Marriages 1836-1942 Transcription
First name(s) Glen Norman
Last name Ferrers
Sex Male
Marriage year 1912
Spouse's first name(s) Isabella Bertha
Spouse's Last Name Barter
State Victoria
Country Australia
Record set Victoria Marriages 1836-1942
Registration number 304
Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers)

I sent an email to the contact at the Shirley Family Association web site and asked if he could identify a Shirley on the FTDNA Shirley Y-DNA Project who was a descendant of the Shirleys who were the Earls Ferrers. Hopefully, we will get a useful response.

I received a quick and positive response from the Shirley Family Association.

They do have one entry in the Shirley Surname Y-DNA Project who is a descendant of the Shirleys who are the Earls Ferrers. That entry is shown under "19. Shirleys of Ettington Warwickshire" and is "9309 England Saswalo > Sewallis..." The haplogroup is R-M269.

Interestingly, he said that despite all of the Shirley DNA samples represented in that project, none of them yet matched to the Shirleys who were the Earls Ferrers. And that result is despite numerous matching R-M269 haplogroup entries.

I wish I knew more about genetics.

Private User Perhaps you can explore with someone at FTDNA comparing this Shirley DNA entry with your Ferris entry. I would hope it could reveal the possibility of a common ancestor (i.e. Henry Ferrers (1394-1463)) but I am not sure what to expect.

The mtDNA of King Richard III is J1c2c3.

"mtDNA is maternally inherited, that is to say it is passed down from a mother to her children, but thereafter only a daughter can pass it down to the next generation."

The above information is from: "King Richard III and his mitochondrial DNA haplogroup J1c2c3," Ian S. Loganand David N. Brinkman, The Journal of Genealogy and Family History, Vol.1, No.1, 28 April 2017
http://dx.doi.org/10.24240/23992964.2017.0301021

Therefore, inheritance of the mtDNA J1c2c3 haplogroup by Richard III's mother, Cecily Neville, would have been from her mother Joan Beaufort (1379-1440) and Beaufort's mother Katherine Roët (1350-1403). When Joan Beaufort was married to Robert Ferrers (1373-1396) she would have passed that J1c2c3 mtDNA to her daughters Elizabeth (1393-1434) and Mary (1394-1458) Ferrers. Elizabeth and Mary are the only children I have found of Robert Ferrers and Joan Beaufort.

Based on the above, it appears to me that the mtDNA of Richard III would not provide any answers. But I have not seen a result showing his Y-DNA. If I understand it correctly, Richard III's complete genome appears at the following address, although I have no idea what it means. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/KM676292

https://vita-brevis.org/2014/12/thoughts-y-dna-richard-iii/

“The gist of the story regarding the Y-DNA is that Richard III [haplogroup G-P287] did not share the same Y-DNA as four of the five documented descendants of Henry Somerset, 5th Duke of Beaufort [haplogroup R1b-U152], descended from Richard’s great-great-grandfather King Edward III (1312­–1377), with some commentary on how this could affect claims to the crown during the War of the Roses. ...”

Appaarently, King Richard III belongs to the Y-DNA "haplogroup G-P287, with a corresponding Y-STR haplotype." What does "a corresponding Y-STR haplotype" mean?

That haplogroup conclusion is from "Identification of the remains of King Richard III," Turi King, et al., 2 Dec 2014, https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms6631

The following are quotes from that article:
***********
"Male-line relatives are generally easier to trace than female ones historically, and ennobled and titled lineages are recorded in a number of published sources. We were able to identify, locate and contact five such relatives, descended from the 5th Duke of Beaufort (1744–1803), who agreed to take part in the study, providing an, albeit distant (between 24 and 26 generations), set of patrilinear relatives (see Fig. 1a and Supplementary Fig. 2). It is worth noting that while easier to trace genealogically, the male line is far more susceptible to false-paternity than the female line is to false-maternity events.

Four of the modern relatives were found to belong to Y-haplogroup R1b-U152 (x L2, Z36, Z56, M160, M126 and Z192)13,14 with STR haplotypes being consistent with them comprising a single patrilinear group. One individual (Somerset 3) was found to belong to haplogroup I-M170 (x M253, M223) and therefore could not be a patrilinear relative of the other four within the time span considered, indicating that a false-paternity event had occurred within the last four generations..."

"In contrast to the Y-haplotypes of the putative modern relatives, Skeleton 1 belongs to haplogroup G-P287, with a corresponding Y-STR haplotype. Thus, the putative modern patrilinear relatives of Richard III are not genetically related to Skeleton 1 through the male line over the time period considered. However, this is not surprising, given an estimated average false-paternity rate of ~1–2% (refs 12, 17, 18). The putative modern relatives and Richard III are related through a male relative (Edward III) four generations up from Richard III (Fig. 1a and Supplementary Fig. 2), and a false-paternity event could have happened in any of the 19 generations separating Richard III and the 5th Duke of Beaufort, on either branch of the genealogy descending from Edward III. Indeed, even with a conservative false-paternity rate18 (see Supplementary Methods) the chance of a false-paternity occuring in this number of generations is 16%."
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One phrase in the second paragraph of the above quote caught my attention: "One individual (Somerset 3) was found to belong to haplogroup I-M170 (x M253, M223)..."
The Jeffrey Ferris haplogroup is I-M223. Does the paranthetical phrase here "x M253, M223" refer to haplogroup I-M223? If it does, does it tell us anything about Jeffrey Ferris?

It seems I may only have questions today, rather than answers.

Erica Howton I guess we were puzzling over the same issue at the same time. Thanks for posting that reference.

Let me see if I can explain, as clearly as I can, what I take away from the Richard III DNA story. I invite corrections since I am no DNA specialist and I am trying simply to understand.

First, recall that the goal with respect to Jeffrey Ferris was to identify the Y-DNA of King Edward III because he was the 4th great grandfather of John Ferrers (1452-1485). Identifying the Y-DNA of Edward the III would also theoretically identify the Y-DNA of King Edward I (1239-1307). King Edward I was the 2nd great grandfather of William Ferrers (1332-1371).

John of Gaunt, one of King Edward III's sons, does not appear in the direct lineage from either King Edward (I or III) to either Ferrers descendant (John or William). John Ferrers (1452-1485) was descended from a differnt son of King Edward III named Lionel of Antwerp. So, John of Gaunt does not present a question about the legitimacy of the Ferrers' descent from either King Edward. John of Gaunt is important, however, because it is through him as a son of Edward III that the researchers attempted to trace the Y-DNA of the present day Beaufort descendants back to Edward III.

The researchers had five present-day Beaufort Y-DNA samples. But none of them matched to Richard III's Y-DNA. Those samples represent at least one false paternity event. Therefore, those Beaufort Y-DNA samples cannot tell us the Y-DNA haplogroup of either King Edward I or III.

The bottom line is that we cannot determine either Edward III's Y-DNA haplogroup or the Ferrers from the current Richard III research. And no particular Y-DNA haplogroup is either included or excluded as a result of that research.

It seems we are back to finding a present-day Ferrers Y-DNA sample.

Or, perhaps a comparison to the Shirely DNA sample (leading back to Henry Ferrers (1394—1463)) will provide some answers or clues.

I'm lost. Richard lll was G-P287 doesn't that suggest Edward l, ll, lll were also G-P287, or is there a change in dynasty I'm forgetting ?

Perhaps I am lost as well.

But, as I understand it, the false paternity could have been in the descent line from Edward III down to Richard III. If it "could" have been in that line, then Richard III's G-P287 would not be a totally reliable indicator for Edward III.