Isabeau de Lalaing - Alternative Data After Merges

At this point in time, we don't have anything that documents the "alternative data". Neither Brassart nor Cawley makes mention of this possible surname. If one looks at the parents and the husband, none of them had titles that would indicate that they held land called "Resnes", which itself is a very obscure reference.

I did find a scholarly project in which there are references to some of this family, but not to Isabeau, as well as the names of adjacent lands that were held by the Lalaing or somehow intersected with them. That paper can be found here: https://www.yumpu.com/fr/document/view/62990026/histoire-des-druesn....

In this paper there is a chronological listing of the seigneurs de Ruesne, none of which are Lalaing or spouses thereof.

Note that this place is called Druesne or Ruesne, not quite the same as Resnes, but close enough that we MAY be dealing with the same land.

Do you have and can you provide a source that confirms this "alternative data"?

Thanks for the research, David.

[ISABELLE de Lalaing (-[Aug 1326/Dec 1338]). The testament of “Isabeau dame d’Aspremont et de Quévrain”, dated [early Aug] 1326, bequeathed property to “Isabeau de Lalaing cordelière en Verdun...nre...fille Felicitas”[408]. It is likely that the testator bequeathed property to Isabelle as her oldest granddaughter at the time. If that is correct, her absence from the Dec 1338 charter, which names her sisters, suggests that she was deceased at the time.] https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/nfracado.htm#_Toc44147371''

suggests that the name ' Isabeau dame d’Aspremont et de Quévrain' is the name of ISABELLE de Lalaing (d/o SIMON [III] de Lalaing & MATHILDE d’Aspremont)'s grandmother, not her own name. Or am I misreading something?

ie - the name of this person:Isabelle de Quiévrain, dame de Quiévrain et d'Amblise

Isabelle is as you and Cawley have identified daughter of Simon III de Lalaing, chevalier, seigneur de Lallaing and Mahaut d'Aspremont, héritière de Quiévrain. She is titled dame d’Aspermont et de Quiévrain. Her father became seigneur de Lalaing et the Quiévrain. It was was through the marriage of her parents that the branch Lalaing Seigneurs de Quiévrain was born. This appears to be one of those marriages where the man married up as Isabelle assumed the title from her mother’s inheritance. I have not yet researched d’Aspermont.

My concern was with the name “or Resnes” from the initial post, I’m not able to find that reference anywhere.

Regarding your second post I’m not sure, give me some time.

Per Cawley, Simons wife was Mathilde (aka Mahaut), but Mathilde’s mother was named Isabelle so the link you refer to above may be out of place, I need to review the other connections…

We know that Quiévrain came from the wife’s side, Mathildes father sire d’Apremont et de Kiévraing = Quiévrain was maybe jure uxoris as Cawley says his wife Isabelle was Dame de Quiévrain et d’Amblise

The Latin Cawley refers to is also confused depending on one word (eveske or évêque) we get

reres et soers...Henri...eveske de Vredun, Mrs. Mehaut de Lalaing his sister, Mrs. Alliennor d'Aspremont, Mrs. de Fontaines their sister and Monsignor Joffroit de Saint Disier knight

brothers and sisters...Henri...bishop of Verdun, Mrs. Mahaut de Lalaing his sister, Mrs. Alliennor d'Aspremont, lady of Fontaines their sister and Monsignor Joffroit de Saint Disier knight

A number of random discoveries
1. I think Geni is correct (with the addition of AKAs) with respect to the original questions…Geoffroi III d’Aspermont, seigneur de Aspremont, marries Isabelle de Quiévrain, dame de Quiévrain et d'Amblise
2. They had a daughter Mathilde aka Mahaut héritière de Quiévrain who marries Simon de Lalaing. She brought Quiévrain to the marriage and maybe also d’Aspermont.
3. I don’t see that Simon is ever titled with d’Aspermont but Mahaut is dame d’Aspermont so it appears she hung on to her fathers land and it was not dowry, but they had a daughter…
4. …Isabelle aka Isabeau named after her grandmother which was a typical thing in Belgium at the time. Isabeau was dame d'Aspremont et de Quiévrain so inherited d’Aspermont from her mother and Quiévrain from her father. She married Gérard V de La Pottes (de Pottes), seigneur de Pottes et Pétriaux who appears NOT to have inherited her lands, nor her children but I’ve not research Pottes.
5. She is also referred to as Cordelière en Verdun but the Latin translations seem to refer to her as a sister of Henri, whom we do not have…although it could be an older Henry (uncle?) and the term sister an ecclesiastical reference. The Latin seems to reference those who could be in-law, my Latin is only as good as Google translate. That reference in Cawley needs further depth for understanding.
6. I don’t know what happened to the land or title d’Amblis…

• 7. Geni shows father of Geoffroi d’Aspermont Gobert VII with two wives, Cawley shows only Agnes de Coucy, so we may want to disconnect and reconnect elsewhere Jean dit Taupin de Sommevesle d'Escannevesle. The text in the about section which comes from Geneanet which is a tertiary source (some of Geneanet is very well done and is worthwhile as leads) discusses only the historical castle of Coucy and not the persons. I don’t know this family name and don’t have the bandwidth to research her but she appears not to supported as wife of Gobert, at least by Cawley. I have not reached out to the single manager who entered the profile, but it has children with the surname Coucy, so needs some work.

8. The only remaining unanswered in my mind is the initial reference to Resnes, which I’ve not found a reference to anywhere.

Jean dit Taupin de Sommevesle d'Escannevesle Is apparently the 2nd husband of Agnes de Coucy, I read the connection incorrectly

I think you're missing me on this one, David. The initial profile of this Discussion: Isabeau de Lalaing, héritière d'Aspremont et de Quiévrain should only be named ISABELLE de Lalaing - I don't see any documentation that makes her dame d'Aspremont et de Quiévrain, and Cawley suggests she dies young.

I don’t believe I’ve missed the point, recognizing that now there have been additional points added via discussion!

1. The original message said only “Surname de Lalaing OR de Resnes”.
By capitalizing OR under the title “Alternative data after merge” I presumed the point to be whether Isabelle de Lalaing should also be AKA de Resnes. As I indicated nothing in my research pointed to this and I ask that you provide the sourcing to support this claim. To this request there has been no response. (so I’m not going to add Resnes at this time.)

I think a second point has been raised through discussion, that now being whether Isabelle should have the suffix dame d'Aspremont et de Quiévrain?

You say in your most recent message “I think you're missing me on this one, David. The initial profile of this Discussion: Isabeau de Lalaing, dame d'Aspremont et de Quiévrain should only be named ISABELLE de Lalaing - I don't see any documentation that makes her dame d'Aspremont et de Quiévrain, and Cawley suggests she dies young.”

Wrong on three points…
1. The profile now only shows her as Isabelle de Lalaing but with a suffix (actually Isabeau which is a commonly used derivative, I am not opposed to changing to Isabelle if that’s all your asking for). However I believe that it’s the suffix you are concerned with?
2. The documentation by both Brassart AND Cawley is cited in the overview tab, both refer to her (by extension) as Isabeau dame d’Aspremont et de Quévrain, which is why I chose to use the name Isabeau (and I am aware that this citation is actually for her grandmother of the same name Isabeau dame d’Aspremont et de Quévrain, whose birth surname was Isabelle de Quiévrain, dame de Quiévrain et d'Amblise, and her mother whose birth surname was Mahaut d'Aspremont, héritière de Quiévrain).
3. Cawley does not suggest she died young. What he says is that she was likely dead by 1338 as a reason why she was not mentioned in a testament of 1338 in which her sisters were mentioned, and Cawley also says she inherited Aspremont et de Quévrain from her grandmother (of the same name) in 1326, which was likely the year she began using the title “dame” d’Aspremont et de Quévrain*.

Since this appears to be your concern I will change Isabelle’s suffix from dame to héritière as it is for her mother and would I believe be consistent with Cawley’s inference from the term “bequeathed property”.

Thank you for the discussion, it did point out further research needed on my part.

• Under the local law of the time a person must be 21 to inherit land and title, and be signatory to legal documents, although 17 was sometimes considered adult enough to marry. This being the case, if Isabelle was bequeathed land by her grandmother’s testament in 1326, she was 21 in 1326 (as there is no reference in any source that she was a minor at the time in which case her guardian would have been mentioned in the testament and there is no mention) and she would therefore have been born no later than 1305. Since her current birthdate is shown as 1300 but without source so I will research and source a better birthday.

David, I don't have skin in this game - Accuracy is simply the query.

Neither of the citations say anything about what property is bequeathed, nor any mention of title - and indeed, she bequeaths property to Isabelle's sister too. Specifically, I can't see where Cawley says this.

Cawley also says she inherited Aspremont et de Quévrain from her grandmother (of the same name) in 1326, which was likely the year she began using the title “dame” d’Aspremont et de Quévrain*.

- so my query was: 'am I missing the place he says it?'. Quite possible

The titular teritory seems to pass down her brother, Simon's, line, first mentioned again by Cawley as denoting Jeanne de Ligne, dame de Quiévrain et de Brebier

I take your point about not necessarily 'dying young'.

I'm not invested in you changing it, though - if you prefer not to.