Geertruij Willemsz, SM/PROG - Geertuij Willemsz Parents?

That would be a fantastic find if there were Sources :-)

I would also love to clarify re: Geertruij's date and place of death (which may have something to with the above?). Geni profile now shows she died at the Cape 1682, aged 26-34. Whereas First Fifty shows "On 23 November 1699,Geertruy Willemse departed the Cape at her own request for Batavia".

Source for that is "[S629] Personal communications between Mansell Upham and Delia Robertson, 2010-present."

I feel for Willem Helm, as he was born four years after she died, it seems. :D

She also has four husbands now.

My best guess is that someone merged her with her daughter Cornelia Helm at some point. Sad really, since she's an MP.

She's outdone by her daughter Dirkje though, who now has 5 husbands.

Looks like a duplicate profile created by Yolande Bernice Coetzer was merged with the main profile by Lizette Buitendag. That profile had Adrian van Wyk and Jan Van Den Bosch as Geertruij Helm (Willemse)'s husbands.

Which in itself is strange since those are Cornelia Helm's husbands. Not even a case of confusing Geertruij Willemsz for Geetruidt Helm.

I'm not sure where I found this information.
I think it is probably correct.
But if you find something better.
Please feel free to change it.
Regards Carole.

Carole, I'd rather not have it there at all until substantiated. This data gets propagated to various platforms and before you know it, it'll be cited as "fact".

Okay.. been waiting until I had the couple of hours that this is obviously going to take to unravel :-(

Carole, as Drummond says - we need to have the primary sources attached to justify keeping them. So, for the moment I'll have to cut the link to Gerrit Willemsz Willemse & Maria Willemse, SM. I'll put a link to this Discussion in a Curator note, so we can find them again if anyone stumbles on primary sources to prove this.

Eish, that was a mess.
I think I've straightened out the husbands of Geertruij & Cornelia van den Bosch.
Private User I haven't had a chance to look at Cornelia's children. You Curate her so you might want to check.

Now for Dirkje Neeff, b5 SM

As an absolute amateur may I venture to add my bit.
Apparently there are two possible Geertruij(t) WIllemse's who seemed to have been confused. The one was born in c1651 and married Hans Helm on 28 Sep 1670 at Oude Kerk, Amsterdam.
The other, Geertruijt, baptised in Stellenbosch on 25 December 1712, is recorded in some places as having been the daughter of Gerrit Willemse and Maria Cornelisse and even of his second wife (partner), Anna van Wijk. There is also speculation, some say documentary evidence, that she was the daughter of Isaac Pietersz van de Caab.
However the record of her baptism on 25 December 1712 only gives the name of her mother, Mary Cornelisz. No father's name is given.
So the rest remains speculation until and if further proof is found as to her ancestry.

Private User, do you have Sources to validate Barend Geldenhuys & Michael Otto of Svelbin as Dirkje Neeff, b5 SM's husbands?

Private User, do you have primary sources for those? That would be spectacular :-)

Geertruyt
South Africa, Dutch Reformed Church Registers (Cape Town Archives)
Other information in the record of Geertruyt
from South Africa, Dutch Reformed Church Registers (Cape Town Archives)
Name Geertruyt
Event Type Baptism
Event Date 25 Dec 1712
Event Place Stellenbosch, Cape of Good Hope, South Africa
Mother's Name Mary Cornelise

South Africa, Dutch Reformed Church Registers (Cape Town Archives), 1660-1970
GS Film number 2214067

Digital Folder Number 4434395

Image Number 00442
Citing this Record
"South Africa, Dutch Reformed Church Registers (Cape Town Archives), 1660-1970 ," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRLQ-ZWC : 4 December 2014), Geertruyt, 25 Dec 1712, Baptism; citing p. , Stellenbosch, Cape of Good Hope, South Africa, State Archives, Cape Province; FHL microfilm 2,214,067.

Ahh - I think I've found it: Geertruyt Willemse, b1 SM baptised daughter of Maria Willemse, SM on 25 Dec 1712 (no father named). https://media.geni.com/p13/dc/c1/8a/1d/5344483992741099/geertruy_wi...

Maria was the wife of Gerrit Willemsz Willemse who seems to have been evicted from his house by Isaac Pietersz van de Caab, SV/PROG

Then possibly she is the Geertruij Willemsen witness to the baptism of Johanna Swart - with her (half?) brother Mattheus Willemsen: https://www.geni.com/images/missing_image.png

I think you've hit the nail on the head Lyn. This is the source of the parentsCarole had. Thank you. Interesting story too:
"Vir 'n tydlank het Isaac Pietersz sy intrek by GERRIT WILLEMSZ van Leeuwarden geneem. Die laaste vier jaar daarvan, het laasgenoemde getuig, het Isaac Pietersz hom in sy eie huis "aangesteld als meester en voogt, 't geen . . . hem ondragelijk geweest te zijn". Op 'n keer het Pietersz hom selfs aan die hare uit sy eie huis gesleep en toe sy vrou oorgeneem, met wie hy in elk geval "seer groote familiaritijt" gehad het. Uit hierdie verhouding is toe "twee onegte Bruijne kinderen" gebore." on http://www.stamouers.com/willemse.htm

crossposted - sorry

Okay, Carole Anne Bailey, I've now merged your two parent profiles into the correct Gerrit and Maria.
Private User, that was a little stroke of genius on your part.
Private User, check that you're happy.

Sharon, I'm happy when my stomach is full and I have a beer in my hand; completely unrelated to my desire to see factual information attached to profiles. Especially when they are curated Master Profiles. :D Thank you, it's looking so much better.

:-) Cheers! :-)

My two cents worth:

1. The baptism record of Geertruy (daughter of Maria Cornelisz) shows two interesting entries. Firstly, reference to the father is "not mentioned" (niet genoemt) whereas the usual reference when the father was not known was "onbekent" (cf. the record of Cornelis & Aletta on the following page). Secondly, in the case of mixed-race children, the baptism records of the time referenced "onecht" or niet echt" (sometimes spelled with "g" instead of "ch". This is seen in the case of the record of Catryna directly below that of Geertruy, but not in Geertruy's record. The above would seem to indicate that, although Gerrit Willemsz was probably already replaced in Maria Cornelisz's life by Isaac Pietersz, the child Geertruy was still fathered by Willemsz. This seems to be supported by the fact that the VOC Cape Muster Rolls for 1712 reflect Gerrit Willemse of Leeuwarden and Maria Cornelisz as still being a married couple (p.248) and Isaacq Pieters as a single individual on p. 246.

2. Hans Helm(es) and Geertje Willems also feature in the VOC Cape Muster Rolls for 1688 but by 1690 Geertrui(d) Willems is listed as the widow Helmes, indicating the passing of Hans between these two dates. She then married Gerrit Jansz van Wijnegom and is so listed in 1692 with 3 children (presumably fathered by Hans Helmes). By 1693, however, only two children are listed with Gerrit Jansz and Geertrui(d). A further interesting fact is that the VOC Muster Rolls for 1702 still contains the names of Gerrit Jansz Wijnegom and Geertruid Willems. Therefore Geertrui either did not depart for Bavaria in 1699, or she returned again to the Cape by 1702.

Hi Gert,

Thanks for sharing the latter re: Geertruij Willemsz. I had earlier updated her date/place of death to "after 23/11/1699" and "Batavia, Dutch East Indies". I am amenable to updating the date to 1702 and removing the place of death until we can substantiate whether she returned to the Cape or died in Batavia. Would appreciate if someone could upload and cite the VOC Muster Roll.

Out of curiosity, what is known about the circumstances leading to Geertruij departing for Batavia "at her own request"? The notes on First Fifty refer only to "personal communications between Mansell Upham and Delia Robertson, 2010-present" as the source for that information.

Corrie, unfortunately I am technologically disadvantaged and have no idea how to upload from distant sources, hopefully someone else could oblige. Although not complete, transcripts of the Cape VOC Muster Rolls for the years 1657-1713 can be accessed on the eGGSA website at: http//www.eggsa.org/sarecords/index.php/muster-rolls/cape-archives-vc-copies. These records definitely places Geertruij at the Cape in 1695 and 1702. The (incomplete) records for the years 1696-1700 seem to reference only "free men" (vrijburghers) so we cannot determine from them if or when Geertruij may have departed from or arrived back at the Cape. It is possible that this information may be contained in the VOC ships passengers lists.

On the issue of the reasons for Geertruij's request to leave the Cape, I have no information. Perhaps you could contact Mansell Upham through eGGSA on this.

Really good info - thankyou. Please make sure it's put on the profile.
I can change the Curator note on Geertruy Willemse's profile to say that either of the two men could be her father.

My tendency is to presume that if she knew that (my grandpa) Gerrit was definitely the father, she'd have insisted on that, but perhaps she wasn't in a position to do that?

These September 1713 legal notes: ""Vir 'n tydlank het Isaac Pietersz sy intrek by GERRIT WILLEMSZ van Leeuwarden geneem. Die laaste vier jaar daarvan, het laasgenoemde getuig, het Isaac Pietersz hom in sy eie huis "aangesteld als meester en voogt, 't geen . . . hem ondragelijk geweest te zijn". Op 'n keer het Pietersz hom selfs aan die hare uit sy eie huis gesleep en toe sy vrou oorgeneem, met wie hy in elk geval "seer groote familiaritijt" gehad het. Uit hierdie verhouding is toe "twee onegte Bruijne kinderen" gebore.""

suggest that two "brown children" have to have been born between 1710 & Sept 1713.
Geertruyt's Dec 1712 baptism makes her an almost certainty to be one of them, to my mind.
And the other possibility must surely be my grandfather, Mattheus Gerhardus Willemse born in 1711?

The dictates of objective research are that conclusions should be based on facts. In science (and genealogical research is a science no question) presumption is the substance of postulation and hypothesis, which require material evidence to become fact.

In the case of Mattheus Willemse (incidentally my great-great... etc grandfather too), there is no doubt that Gerrit Willemsz and Maria Cornilisz are the (recorded) parents of Mattheus, as evidenced by the baptismal record of 14 June 1711. I will upload the record to his profile if not already there.

Geertruij's case is a bit more complex. Her baptismal record simply states that her father is unnamed - nothing more and nothing less. From the legal notes it may be surmised that two mixed-race children (fact) were born in the four years preceding 1713 (not fact but reasonable conclusion), but there is no indication that these children were baptized or that there is any reason why such children should receive what are essentially christian names (such as Mattheus & Geertruij) commonly associated with Netherlands families (including the Willemse lineage). Incidentally, there are strong indications that Gerrit Willemsz had a sister named Geertruij. Finally, the "Suid Afrikaanse Geslagsregisters" authored by Heese & Lombard as well as researchers of the elk of Lucas Rinken and Sylke Willemse reference Gerrit and Maria as the parents of Geertruij. Although it is possible that are commonly mistaken, it would need factual evidence to disprove them. Mere presumption cannot suffice.

I think we cannot know who Mattheus' father is, so we go with the documentation. It just seemed an interesting possibility unavoidably suggested by the facts. We need to wait for a y chromosome descendant of his to have his DNA tested. Are you that?

Tell me why you say that it's not a fact that the two brown kids had to have been born in the 4 yrs prior to the writing of the document?

Agreed, we cannot know for sure until irrefutable material proof is found and until such time we have to stick with available facts. But this would be true for every single individual even today would it not? I might be a source for Y chromosome as Gerrit Willemsz is my direct line paternal sixth great grandfather through Mattheus (if the records are to be believed).

On the two brown kids: The only evidence we have of their existence is the court documents relating evidence by Gerrit Willemsz in this regard. To date I could not find any other source documents supporting this evidence, nor any other source making reference in this regard. We have to keep in mind that the reference we have is not a transcript of the original document, but merely the author's version of what is reflected in the original document. Therefore, we cannot deduce that the two brown children were necessarily born in the four years preceding the 1713 court case, although this seems likely. Point being that without birth/baptism records it remains speculative. I think one should peruse the original court documents and other material referenced by the author before making a call on this.

We also have to question why one brown child (IF we consider Geertruij to be one) would be baptized (and we have a record of her baptism) but not the other (for which we at this point have no record). Considering that the scribes of the time diligently recorded such things as parental and other details, we also have to question the absence of any reference to mixed-race in the baptism record of Geertruij. We may assume that if the two brown children were born in the four year period preceding the 1713 court case, they were not baptized and again would have to question why? And so it goes on and on. Many more considerations may be taken under review, such as who is the Geertruij Willemsz recorded as the mother in a baptism record of 1735 but in the end it all remains speculation and assumption. So the only thing we can safely say is that the two brown chidren MAY have been born in the four year period up to 1713 but NOT necessarily so.

I think the available facts are
*the most children that Maria could have physically had in that time is three - unless there were twins.
*the 2 Brown Children reference is a quote from the 1713 document

So unless there is a third, unbaptised child somewhere - something that I agree with you is highly uncharacteristic - those children are most likely to be Mattheus and Geertryut. But even if there is a third unbaptised child, we are still forced to conclude that either Mattheus or Geertryut must be Isaac's.

Fact:
*Despite still being married to Gerrit, Maria doesn't name him as the father on Geertryut's baptism

It isn't logical to conclude that Geertruyt is most likely to be Gerrit's child, given these facts.

Whether or not Mattheus is the other Brown child referenced in the 1713 doc, awaits his Y DNA descendants' test results. If they are non European, then there is a very strong likelihood that Isaac is the father.
That would be really helpful to know about our grandpa - so I'm holding thumbs that you do go and get tested.