Richard Denton, lll, Reverend - The Origins of Reverend Richard Denton

P.S. re the foregoing note. If anyone has additional conflicting or supporting evidence, I would love to hear about it.

Starting with Unknown Wife of Rev. Richard Denton

I have thus far found that Richardson does not list her as a known child of Frances Dymoke & Thomas Windebanke in Plantagenet Ancestry 2nd edition

https://books.google.com/books?id=kjme027UeagC&lpg=RA2-PA68&amp...

However it appears they did indeed have a daughter Ellyn baptized 1594

http://history.woodedhill.org/Hurst/PRB-W.htm (do a "find")

And there is the curiosity of a fervent Presbyterian seeking employment in Anglican Virginia, that does imply a family contact, would that be Mildred Reade

I would want to see the Windebank wills.

Has anyone looked in the Venn / Cambridge alumni database yet?

Sorry - you explained very well about the self referential Cambridge alumni database record. DNB quotes Venn who quotes DNB!

Ellyn Windebank born 1594 does not much fit with Rev Denton based on age, class, or location. Where does the marriage note originate, do you know? In other words, where & when & by whom does it first appear and in which publication?

I'm compiling any additional references I can find that are not trees

COMBES, G. D. A. (1990). Genealogy of the descendants of Rev. Richard Denton of Hempstead, Long Island for the first five generations. Ann Arbor, Michigan, University Microfilms International. http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/866504250

Summary:

Richard Denton was born ca. 1605 in Yorkshire, England. He married prior to 1624 but the name of his wife is unknown. Richard immigrated to the United States with his family prior to 1636 and was a minister in the Presbyterian Church. He preached at Stamford, Conn. and Hamstead, Long Island, New York for fifteen years and died ca. 1663. He was the father of seven children. Descendants lived primarily in New York ...

-------
"Who Was the Reverend Richard Denton" by Dr. Walter C. Krumm New York Genealogical & Biographical Record Vol. 117, # 3 pp. 163-166; July 1986 Vol. 117, # 4 pp. 211- 218; October 1986 "Descendants of the Rev. Richard Denton" by Dr. Walter C. Krumm Vol. 120, # 1 pp. 10-12; January 1989

I believe these articles are here

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=kerry...

-------

The early history of Hempstead (Long Island)
by Moore, Charles Benjamin, 1808-1893. [from old catalog] Published 1879

https://archive.org/stream/earlyhistoryofhe00moor#page/8/mode/2up

------

I've updated the wife profile here:

Unknown Wife of Rev. Richard Denton

And separated her from Ellyn Windebank

Is there a marriage record for this?

http://thepeerage.com/p16161.htm#i161608

She married Richard Denton on 16 November 1623 at Southwark Savior, Surrey, England.1 She died in 1656 at Yorkshire, England.1
     From 16 November 1623, her married name became Denton.1

I've located the 1605 will of Sir Thomas Windebank of Hougham it is attached to his family profiles:

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000058627226924&

In 1605 he had one son (Francis), 2 married daughters and one unmarried daughter: Anne Reade, Mildred Reade, and Margaret Windebank. No Ellyn or Helen. The Ellyn baptized 1593/4 must have been the daughter of a different Thomas. (Sir Thomas' wife Frances Dymoke would have been past her child bearing years by 1594).

You will also notice the children are well provided for in cash, gifts and property, which does not fit for a wife of a Dissenting minister.

Another very pertinent point was made here:

http://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/denton/2633/

"Aside from the documentation which contradicts Richard's wife being from this Windebank family, it just doesn't seem at all logical that a radical Puritan (or nonconformist) like Richard would find a wife from a well-connected family whose political and religious convictions ran so strongly in the exact opposite direction."

Erica, thanks for all of your hard work and the additional information you have been able to uncover. As a partial reply, here are a few more data points.

1. Venn shows only four Windebanks attending Cambridge. The first was a John Windebank who received his BA from Trinity College in 1606-7. No other details were given. The second was Francis Windebank, the son of Thomas Windebank of Haines Hill, Hurst, receiving his MA in 1641-2; baptised Aug 21, 1582 and Secretary of State 1632-40. The third and fourth were Peter Windebank and Thomas Windebank who were at Cambridge in 1640 and 1675. See Venn's Alumni Cantabrigienses, Vol IV, Part 1, 1927, p. 436 https://archive.org/details/p1alumnicantabri04univuoft

2. The marriage note for Helen Windebank in 1612 originated with FindMyPast.com which used a transcription of Boyd's marriage indexes, 1538-1850. The following is the verbatim marriage note from FindMyPast:

England, Boyd's marriage indexes, 1538-1850 Transcription
First name(s): Helen
Last name: Windebank
Marriage year: 1612
Spouse's first name(s): Richard
Spouse's last name: Denton
Place Southwark
Dedication: St Saviour County: Surrey
Country: England
Source: Boyd's 1st miscellaneous marriage index, 1415-1808
Record set: England, Boyd's Marriage Indexes, 1538-1850
Category: Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers)
Subcategory: Marriages & divorces
Collections from: United Kingdom
Society of Genealogists
Transcriptions © Society of Genealogists

3. I have never seen a record for the purported 1623 marriage between a Helen Windebank and a Richard Denton as noted on ThePeerage.com. But having reviewed numerous records on thePeerage.com, the author of the site himself, Darryl Lundy, notes there are many errors he is working to correct. He does seem to do a good job of footnoting his sources. In this case, the only source noted for the marriage is an email message from a Clare Rutkowski in 2016. This may be another case where someone makes a claim and then it gets repeated as if it were true.

Just a brief note of explanation re Francis Windebank. While Venn said Francis received his MA from Cambridge in 1641-2 (after he had been Secretary of State from 1632-40), he had previously received his BA from Oxford in 1601-2. The note says the Cambridge MA was received "on the King's visit." Perhaps the MA was a reward or favor arranged by the King.

I went through mental contortions about Ellyn Windebank as her baptism date of 1594 seems out of sync for the family (sisters and brother born in the 1580s) and she's not in the 1605 will. If she's not in the 1605 will, she's most likely deceased before then, so wasn't marrying anyone - in 1612, about 1623, etc.

But I should also point out that St Saviour in Surrey was not this Windebank family parish, they are associated with St Martin in the Field in Westminster (as well as the seat in county Berkshire).

I also located the 3rd of the 3 Windebank sisters & started a tree, her marriage noted in Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry). Her marriage family was of Knottingley

John Grymesditch, Esq.

Another sister is notable for being an ancestress of President George Washington and is in fact his "gateway" ancestor to "Royal Ancestry.". That's been well known since - well, "he" knew it. :)

Which would explain, perhaps, why a "died young" child [that is, no further record beyond the baptism, to deny a claim made] crept into this tree by an enterprising & as yet unidentified Denton genealogist.

I'm still shaking my head about trying to associate a radical and impoverished Dissenter into a family that left a dowry of 2000 pounds to an unmarried daughter. He would have been set for life instead of wandering the American wilderness dodging Indian attacks ....

I love your description in the last paragraph about "dodging Indian attacks..." Historical, economic and social contexts are as important as other factors when trying to unravel a genealogy.

Yes, those mental contortions required to understand Helen, Ellen or Ellyn Windebank are what drove me to look more deeply at Rev. Denton's early biography. Sometimes the desire to claim royal lineage can overcome our slavery to the evidence.

Speaking of evidence, I do hope more can be found to identify the wife of Reverend Denton... Perhaps more can be found about Susanna Coates since she seems the more promising lead at the moment... I wonder if Rev. Denton was an "apprentice" priest (if there were such a thing) at Adel (or nearby) between his graduation from Cambridge and his appointment to St. Anne's in Turton. What did he do "professionally" between 1624 and 1627? ... Just some speculative thoughts... Not giving up yet.

My synapses did not make the connection. The marriage of a Helen Windebank to a Richard Denton in Southwark, St. Savior, Surrey is reported as being in 1612 by FindMyPast using Boyd's marriage indexes, 1538-1850, but as being in November 1623 by the email to ThePeerage.com, presuming they are the same marriage. Should we believe there were two such marriages? If not, which year is correct? A marriage at the end of 1623 might work... But Southwark is essentially in London, and would they not have had their first child for four years?

Still, with only two potential Helens, Ellens or Ellyns born in 1593-4 or 1597, they seem unlikely candidates to be the wife of Reverend Denton. And, because there were a number of Richard Dentons at that time, there is no evidence this Richard Denton married near London in 1612 or 1623 is the same Richard Denton who attended Cambridge.

The question I would ask is where and when and by whom did the name Helen Windeback become associated with Rev Richard? Because no wife is named as late as 1879's History of Hempstead, that makes me think this might be amateur enthusiasts and LDS pedigree submittals in the 2000's.

You have the St Saviour record, and it's hard to believe couples of the same name married on the same date, different years. Nobody has seen the record cited in the email, and there is not, I think, any sort of London focus for the Rev. (so far). Indeed from what I gather of his biography, he's kind of anti London, a countryman, and Yorkshire makes sense.

The Susanna Coates lead is more promising, and the supposed legacy that prompted his return to England (supposedly ... The wife's health story is a bit more realistic).

Look down tree also. People mentioning aunts, uncles, cousins ....

Good advice. Thanks!

I agree about the genesis of Helen Windebank. None of the earlier historical works would suggest she even existed. She seemed to creep into the picture only a couple of years ago.

From http://www.thehennesseefamily.com/getperson.php?personID=I16663&amp...

Many genealogies report Richard's wife as "Helen Windebank". This is erroneous as his wife's name has not been cited in any known record - this is a case where multiple researchers have copied and reported the same misinformation, thus perpetuating the error and all the while not bothering to verify any source citation. This is nothing new as one sees this research-error over and over again...

There is a marriage record for Richard Denton & Helen Windebanke, however, the wedding date was in November 16, 1612 which is highly unlikely as this Richard Denton was born in 1603.

.. Combes states that Rev. Richard's marriage does not appear among those of the Dentons at Halifax, nor is it recorded at Bolton, Lancashire where two of his children were baptized. Probably he was married not long before he became minister at Turton, a small place about four miles north of Bolton. This would put the probable date of his marriage as between 1624 and 1626. The baptismal dates for five of his children are known, two at Bolton, Lancashire and three at Coley, Halifax, from 1627 to 1634. It is known that three of his children, Nathaniel, Samuel, and Daniel, came to the U.S., probably with their parents in 1635.

Yes, I had seen that earlier note from the Hennessee Family web site. It was one of several factors that prompted me to search for more evidence.

I would suggest that Rev. Denton's birth date be changed to circa 1600, perhaps with a brief note indicating that his ordination in 1622-3 required that he be at least 23 and, therefore, his birth date must have been in 1600 or before. And, that the Venn and DNB birth dates in 1603 were not based on Cambridge records. Using a precise date in 1603 suggests more validity to that date than it deserves.

Done, and added the explanation in a sub paragraph in overview narrative, thus persevering the 1603 data. Is it associated with the currently shown parents of Susan "Sibella" and Richard Denton ?

Thanks for making the changes. And, yes, the 4/5/1603 birth date is shown in the "About" section for the parents. But circa 1600 shows in the pop-up for the Reverend Denton as a son.

I think I may have misunderstood your question. Therefore, I will try to answer this question: does the change in the 1603 birth date mean that Richard Denton (1557-1619) and Susan "Sibella" were not Reverend Denton's parents?

The short answer would be that if they were the parents of a Richard Denton born in 1603, it would seem highly improbable they were also the parents of a Richard Denton born in 1599 or 1600.

First, the 2004 Krum article (cited on p. 2 of my memo) does not mention who the parents of the 1603 Richard Denton were. Perhaps they do appear in the actual record in the West Yorkshire County Record Office.

Of the all the Richard Dentons I found and listed on page 9 of my memo, (a) the father of the Richard born in Kent (southeast of London) in 1600 was named "Wm" (presumably William); (b) the father of the Richard born in Fishlake, Yorkshire in 1599 was named Edward; (c) the father of the Richard born in Royston, Yorkshire in 1596 is unknown; and (d) the father of the Richard born in London in 1595 was named Richard.

I suppose the least that can be said is that if Reverend Richard Denton was born before 1603 and if Susan Sibella and a Richard Denton were indeed the parents of a Richard Denton actually born in 1603, then they were most likely not the parents of Reverend Richard Denton.

So the next step would be finding out if there were a Richard Denton and a Susan Sibella who had a son Richard, and when he was born.

Well, obviously if they (Richard and Susan Sibella) did not have a son named Richard, they would be out of the running. But even if they did, you would still have the same problem of determining whether that was the same Richard who attended Cambridge and was ordained at Peterborough.

Viewing it another way, what evidence do we have that sets the parameters for identifying the proper Richard who did attend Cambridge and who was ordained at Peterborough?

(1) We know that Reverend Richard was ordained a deacon in 1622 or 1623. Different years are given by the Church of England records and by Venn's Alumni Cantabrigienses. Given the ambiguity in years at that time, I would allow for either being possible.

(2) We know that Canonical law required that Reverend Denton be at least 23 at the time of ordination. Therefore, he must have been born no later than either 1599 or 1600.

(3) We know that when compiling their histories of thousands of Cambridge alumni, Venn and his staff reviewed church records and observed that "almost invariably" the Cambridge graduates who were ordained into the church were "within a year or two of being 23." Therefore, if Reverend Denton must have been born no later than 1599 or 1600, he is very likely to have been born no earlier than 1597 or 1598, unless he were the exception to the rule. Being the exception is possible, but unlikely according to Venn's observations. That would mean he was most likely born between 1597 and 1600.

(4) The only two Richard Dentons I found who were born between 1597 and 1600 were (a) the one born in Fishlake, Yorkshire in 1599 and (b) the one born in Tonbridge, Kent (southeast of London) in 1600.

(5) The DNB, The History of Long Island ... by Thompson (1843), and Walter Krum's articles from the 1980's to 2004 all say he was born in Yorkshire. (I am unaware of any other authority that says anything different about his birth place.) The only Richard Denton born in Yorkshire between 1597 and 1600 was the one baptised in Fishlake in 1599 and whose father was Edward Denton baptised in Fishlake on 26 September 1568.

The above simply applies logic to the evidence we have in order to find a solution. Obviously, new evidence might suggest a different outcome, but the odds point very strongly in this direction.

I suppose another alternative would be to find all Richard Dentons who might have become the Reverend and then search for written histories that reveal each Richard's life and hope that one of those histories says that Richard went to Cambridge and was ordained at Peterborough. Ultimately, doing it this way, the problem still comes down to finding evidence with respect to each Richard that would identify him as the one who graduated from Cambridge in 1623-4 and who was ordained at Peterborough in 1622 and 1623 (plus or minus a year).

So there's a "traditional" pedigree for Richard Denton, Il

Should be findable

Don't see him here

http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archiveDS/archiveDownload?t=arc...

I was made curious by the note "lawyer for Edward Vl and Mary Tudor"

There was indeed a "prominent attorney," Sir Thomas Denton, Treasurer of the Temple, in that era

https://books.google.com/books?id=XbQgAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA189&ot...

https://archive.org/stream/visitationofcoun58phil#page/38/mode/1up

A long way from a country vicar, Dissendent, of Yorkshire.

We do have records in Yorkshire a generation above

------

Genett Banyster
 in the England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973
No Image
Text-only collection
Report issue
Name: Genett Banyster
Gender: Female
Marriage Date: 1548
Marriage Place: Halifax, York, England
Spouse: Richard Dentonne
FHL Film Number: 496813
Reference ID: 2:KHTFD2
SAVE Cancel
Source Information
Ancestry.com. England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2014.

-----
All Results SAVE PRINT SHARE
Ric. Denton Genett Banystr
 in the Yorkshire, England, Extracted Church of England Parish Records
No Image
Text-only collection
Report issue
Text: Ric. Denton Genett Banystr 10 Sep 1548
Book: Marriages 1538--1593. (Marriage)
Collection: Yorkshire: Halifax - Registers of Marriages and Burials, 1538-1593
SAVE Cancel

------

And the 1603 baptism record

All Results SAVE PRINT SHARE
Richard Denton
 in the West Yorkshire, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1512-1812
VIEW

View Map
Add alternate information
Report issue
Name: Richard Denton
Event Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: Apr 1603
Baptism Place: Halifax, St John the Baptist, Yorkshire, England
Parish: Halifax, St John the Baptist
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Map:
View this parish
Father: Rich Denton
SAVE Cancel
Source Citation
West Yorkshire Archive Service; Wakefield, Yorkshire, England; Yorkshire Parish Records; Old Reference Number: D53/1/4; New Reference Number: WDP53/1/1/4

Because this is Mother's Day, we are all preoccupied. But sources that occur to me are any 16th or 17th century "Visitations" of Yorkshire, like those for other counties at the time. Also, histories of Yorkshire, Halifax, or other places in Yorkshire might have some information about the Dentons. Local histories written in the 19th century that I have seen for other ancestors have proven useful. Fortunately, Google books allows searches of the text within the books so you don't have to read everything.

Suggestions for those histories given here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=KqFmZblQDx8C&lpg=PA844&ot...

Another thought about evidentiary parameters that may help further identify Reverend Denton and his family:

Reverend Heywood (1630-1702), who was in charge of Coley a couple decades after Rev. Denton, stated in his papers that Rev. Denton was there for "about seven years." (See "The Rev Oliver Heywood, His Autobiography, Diaries, Anecdote and Event Books," Vol IV, Horsfall Turner (ed.) (1885), pp. 11-12) Rev. Denton had left Turton by 1632, as indicated by St. Anne's current web site. That suggests Rev. Denton left England perhaps between 1637 and 1639. Maybe a search of ship records for Rev. Denton's crossing during that period would indicate a wife's name and/or children's names. (Others have suggested an earlier crossing, but I have seen no evidence of such.)