Robin Judd, of the Cherokee - Confirming the parentage of Robin Judd

I also have questions about some of the narrative in the notes for Rowland Judd. It currently reads:

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Rowland was born in Fillongley, Warwickshire, England in 1720. He met and married his wife Robin (also born in England) before immigrating with her to America when Rowland was age 25. Upon his arrival in America Rowland became an indentured servant to Thomas Stammers of Philadelphia County in Pennsylvania for a period of four years, ending in 1749

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BUT his baptism record is for 4/18/1725, so he probably wasn't born in 1720.

And Robin was supposedly Cherokee, so he probably didn't meet and marry her in England.

Note: Ostenaco's trip to England was in 1762. I saw a comment online that Robin accompanied him on it, met and married Rowland there. This doesn't work with his known emigration as an indentured servant in 1745, and he probably did not marry until after the contract was fulfilled.

There's also a first wife supposedly, Susanna, with a death date seen of 1757. So presumably Rowland & Robin married after that date and in North Carolina.

That Osteanco was called "Judd's Friend" seems coincidental.

I see a comment on this FamilySearch tree

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LVMK-721

Tradition has Rowland, Sr. married to a Cherokee Indian. Have found no evidence to support this theory.

So since this marriage is controversial, I hope everyone pitches in to make the geni tree the best we know.

By the way, it looks like I'm related to the Judd tree, after all. So I now have thrown a horse shoe in the rink.

Private User thank you for the document, I wish we knew more. :)

I also have a couple more issues to point out

- What's with the Elizabeth Owen wife born 1723? Is she traveling from a later elizabeth Owen?

- Does it not seem that the "traditional" trees picked up the birth & death dates for Rowland & ascribed them to her?

- What is the explanation for the two names we see associated with her - Robin (not in the 1700s a girl's name) and Joyce (a Welsh / West Counties name).

- what is her cherokee name supposed to have been?

- What do Cherokee genealogists say about this marriage?

Thank you for bringing attention to this. I myself have been searching for documentation and I haven't been able to find any except for the marriage to Susanna and her death. Which is on Ancestry by the way and which I obtained in a free week-end search. I commented once on a message board and was laughed at...If this Robin is Osteanco's daughter that well defined tree doesn't recognize it.

James Hicks has good online register reports including for Ostenaco

It's here

http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/h/i/c/James-R-Hicks-VA/BOOK-0001/0032-...

What does DAR / SAR have for Rowland's wife?

I've tried reading up on Ostenaco Outacite "Mankiller" “Judd’s Friend” of Settico, Cherokee Emissary to England and I do not see the name of his wife mentioned; does anyone have it?

The association with Henry Timberlake is decently validated I believe: Henry sponsored Ostenaco's trip to England; so even if we can't locate actual records for the marriage etc I don't think there's much to question here.

Robin / Joyce is another story. Nothing, nothing, nothing. When did she even come into "existence?"

I just saw this Record

William Judd
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Christening: Sep 16 1754 - Saint Phillips, Birmingham, Warwick, England
Death: Dec 20 1756
Parents: Rowland Judd, Susanna

But Rowland was in America in 1745

Do we have a different Rowland Judd out there ?

http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/m/c/b/Margo-Mcbride/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0...

undred Cherokee warriors joined them under Chief Ostenaco, Judd's friend, and moved against the Shawnee on the Ohio, but due to the rigors of winter and exhausted supplies, they returned without striking a blow."
Rowland certainly seemed to be on good, close terms with the Indians in the area, so it is entirely possible he was married to one of the women.No marriage record has ever been found, but countless Judd descendants tell of hearing their mothers and grandmothers sing a song called "Napanee", written by Will S. Genaro, copyrighted in 1901, about a white man who marries an Indian woman. The family tradition says that this song is about Rowland and his wife, although some think Rowland's son's wife, Elizabeth Owens, was an Indian orphan adopted by the Owens.

From these notes I takewaway

- Rowland JUDD was purported to be Judd, friend of Osteneco. But if there really was a historical Judd to have been his friend, no one has found him yet, and it seems unlikely to have been a surveyor many, many miles away

- the name of his wife is not known.

- it was his daughter in law speculated to have been native (tribe unspecified)

- the birth date & location for Nathaniel of 1745 is quite curious. Rowland emigrated alone as far as the records tell us & it was not allowed,I don’t think, for a servant to marry until his service was completed. I have one ancestor who was imported with wife & child to Virginia, she was indentured also. So you don’t expect to see children until after 1749. So is this a mixup & in fact we don’t have Nathaniel’s birth record? or was he a cousin in England joined the family later? There’s a note that Nathaniel joined the family in NC “later”

- I am really wondering if the Francis father for Rowland is valid ....

https://www.wikitree.com/photo/jpg/Judd-64-1

Susanna Judd, wife of Rowland Judd, buried in England, 1757

It is hard to believe this is the same Rowland unless one postulates he returned to England after 1749 and came back to Virginia after 1757.

Apparently there is proof Nathaniel was of an age to have to have been born by 1746. But as said, indentured servants weren't allowed to marry, so it's quite curious. In any event given the age gap in children, it looks Rowland would have had two wives, names unknown.

Origin of Ostenaco's "Judd's Friend" nickname given in the Dictionary of North Carolina

https://books.google.com/books?id=kDQ0DyvxjEAC&lpg=PA405&ot...

"early in his career he saved a trader named Judd from Cherokee wrath ..."

Osteneco was born say 1705, so "early" would have been say 1725 - 1730. Around the time Rowland Judd was born in England.

Note the comments on this discussion

https://www.ancestry.com/boards/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=6206&...

Have you actually traced your ancestor's thru primary sources and collected documentation, copies of records etc., or have you just looked at online "trees".
They are notoriously unreliable.

It's very easy for someone to just describe their ancestor's wife as "Cherokee Woman" or simply "Indian Woman", but without a name it would not be a legal marriage, and subsequently, any children would not be "legal".
The law required that both parties had a FULL name and were baptized.

In Colonial America, marriage between Europeans
and anyone who was not European ie African or Indian was outlawed in the late 1600's.
Inter Racial marriage laws were not changed until the latter part of the 20th century. (1967)

Henry TIMBERLAKE's life is well documented.

I do know she was Cherokee because I have cousins that Native ancestors are related to her. Most Natives that married whites did not say they were native . There was a baptisim held for Robin by her grandaughter . The baptism of the dead. I have native DNA . I know it don't prove her ancestors, but I allready know her ancestors no matter if this site wants to say so or not. The lady that looked up what i sent you is Native and a match for me. She lives in Oklahoma. I will not bother you anymoe about Robin. I have to many matchs with so many cousin in the Gedmatch that are related to Robin and her ancestors.

I will ask my cousin to send it tome. I have it but you willnot accept what I have sinec I dowloaded it from your site several years ago before you took it down.

I believe Elizabeth Owens is Nathanial's wife. The oldest 2 were children born to Susanna One passed at a young age. Only one living child from that marriage. The others were born here with the second wife. I think I uploaded that document but I will have to check tomorrow.

Leslie Lynette Heidel You did upload to Susanna, thank you.

Do you follow my puzzlement on how Rowland could be having children in England when he was indentured In Pennsylvania?

- William was buried 1752 in England
- Susanna Judd was buried 1757 in England
- Nathaniel has an estimated birth date of 1746, a location given of Philadelphia

I would love it to be true, that Rowland Judd's wife married a high status Cherokee. But I can't find it anywhere. Help me out on it? A line in a register report, without citation, doesn't prove it, and DNA matches do not prove it either.

Private User If you're matching to those with known native ancestry, that's great, you have him or her in your tree somewhere, keep digging, they'll show up. But an autosomnal test at gen 7 won't prove it one way or another. Roberta Estes is a well respected genealogist and genetic researcher specializing in native ancestry, and she explains why:

https://dna-explained.com/2012/12/18/proving-native-american-ancest...

Have you tried her genetic pedigree chart? I haven't yet, I have too many dead ends to solve genealogically before I can make most effective use of it.

Ostenaco is relatively well known in history, but I have not yet seen evidence to support the register report's parents & wife for him. His brother is known.

And his daughter Helen Theresa is known, she even has correspondence on file in England:

https://books.google.com/books?id=3Ko7LR3TXJIC&lpg=PA460&dq...

A Guide to Cherokee Documents in Foreign Archives By William L. Anderson, James Allen Lewis. page 460

I wish you luck in exploring your genealogy.

"There was a baptisim held for Robin by her grandaughter . The baptism of the dead ..."

That sounds like an LDS temple ceremony for a submitted pedigree report. That temple work is important in the Mormon religion, and it says that that the person with the pedigree believed it, and her religious leaders believed her.

But it doesnt mean it was an accurate genealogy, unfortunately.

Yes, I am very curious abut this and whether there were 2 Rowland Judd's...I wonder if we will ever be able to prove. We don't know if Rowland paid his debt earlier than planned. Were natives allowed to be married in the church? I don't know. I do have Nancy Rebecca Judd Slagle as my 3rd great grandmother and I also have been told that the grand daughter had the baptism of the dead. Somewhere I have Judd letters that were sent after the move to Tennessee that were shared with me. I haven't read them in a while. If you would like to have a copy please email me. I think they were all in pdf file.

If natives converted they could marry in the church, it looks like Helen Theresa Ocenaco did.

This is what I propose, in accordance with the facts & also family tradition

- have two unknown wives for Rowland, the 2nd one being "also known as" Robin / Joyce, and note that she is believed to have been of native background but not proven / proveable at this time

- "presume" that Susanna Judd & son William belong to a different Rowland

- 1st wife with son Nathaniel maybe England ?

- think about whether the parents of Francis really belong with "different Rowland"

Elizabeth Judd daughter of Robin Osenaco and Rowland Judd. Elizabeth married Benjimin Penion Pennell. They lived in Wilkes county ,NC. They are my 4th great grandparents. This is on my father's mother's father's side. Mary Pennell daugther of Elizabeth Judd Pennell married John Winkler my 3rd great grandparents,Joshua Winkler son of Mary Pennell married Mary Pearson ,Joshua Winkler is my second great grandfather. John Winkler son of Joshua Winkler is mygreat grandfather . He married Lelia Taylor,my grandmother is Leola Winkler married to Zebulan Vance Farthing of Boone, NC.My father John Henry Farthing.

Elizabeth Judd daughter of Robin Osenaco and Rowland Judd. Elizabeth married Benjimin Penion Pennell. They lived in Wilkes county ,NC. They are my 4th great grandparents. This is on my father's mother's father's side. Mary Pennell daugther of Elizabeth Judd Pennell married John Winkler my 3rd great grandparents,Joshua Winkler son of Mary Pennell married Mary Pearson ,Joshua Winkler is my second great grandfather. John Winkler son of Joshua Winkler is mygreat grandfather . He married Lelia Taylor,my grandmother is Leola Winkler married to Zebulan Vance Farthing of Boone, NC.My father John Henry Farthing.

Lettica ‘Lettie Hatchet Grey’ Howard

Letty "Hatchet Grey" Durham is Ostenaco Outacite "Mankiller" of Settico, Cherokee Emissary to England's first cousin twice removed.

Ostenaco Outacite "Mankiller" of Settico, Cherokee Emissary to England
→ Aganusitsi Quatie "Quatsy", sister of Old Hop
his mother → Amahetai ll MoyToy of Tellico
her brother → Ah Nee Wa Kee Moytoy
his daughter → Eliza "Skyuka Cherokee Maiden" Durham
her daughter → Letty "Hatchet Grey" Durham
her daughter

Is Letty "Hatchet Grey" Durham fact or fantasy?

Passing this on. Joyce Moytoy is my 5th great grandmother. She married Rowland Judd and they lived inn Wilkes county , NC Her daughter Elizabeth married Benjimin Pennell, her daughter Mary Pennell married John Winkler,their son Joshua Winkler, married Mary Pearson , their son John Winkler's married Lelia Taylor ,their daughter Leola Winkler married Zebulan Vance Farthing, theri son my father is John Henry Farthing of Boone, NC II was born Brenda O'leta Farthing in Boone, NC. I am looking for any proof of who my 5th great grandmother's parents were . Geni has taken away all her ancestors . I can only go back as far as Robin and Rowland Judd. I do not know how to send things I have on file to her. I am on Facebook and messenger on Facebook as Brenda Farthing Cooter. my email is oleta472@aol.com.

Erica and others:
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Myth 3 – DNA Testing Will Reveal my Tribe

Generally, DNA testing does not provide us with the information needed to determine a tribe, although it can clearly tell, using y-line or mitochondrial DNA testing, whether your direct paternal or maternal line was or was not Native. Sometimes you will be able to infer a tribe based on your matches and their documented history, but the definition of tribes, their names and locations have changed over time. We are working on improving this ability, but the science simply isn’t there yet and the number of Native people who have tested remains small.
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I would like to expand on this and say things are changing!

The article was written in 2012. We are now in 2018, and databases are developing and growing. Confirmed tribal members are test taking and overlapping segments are being discovered.

I also show native American Ancestry on 4 different DNA tests with various companies. But, results vary.

Male Y DNA SNP markers can show a connection to the Native People, but, it may not necessarily show your tribe, yet, there are patterns of markers being seen. See this research page I present here:

https://media.geni.com/p13/61/5b/d1/3a/53444847590209ad/m89_indian_...

https://media.geni.com/p13/4b/ab/6a/f0/5344484758fd9577/m89_anishin...

But, with this being said; these Native males share the same DNA markers with Siberians and Central Asians matching the Ice Bridge or Bering Strait theory:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/first-americans-lived-on...
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While searching for my Native Tribal Connections through DNA tests I must say this.

(1) NO two tests have shown the same results.

(2) Because everyone inherits DNA autosomally, brother and sisters results may differ based on random mixture or luck of mixed selection.

(3) The more native ancestors you have, the higher chance results may show on a Native DNA tests.

(4) If your Native ancestor is more recent in your tree the higher chance a DNA test may show native results.

(5) If your DNA tests doesn't show any Native results, it does not mean you did not have a Native ancestor, you either did not inherit much from this person, or, time has passed several generations and does not trigger results in DNA tests. (you may still have a native Ancestor, DNA tests just do not show it.

In conclusion, DNA tests are showing Native results through several companies tests.
You cannot currently use a DNA tests for tribal enrollment , but, it can give you clues towards tribal affiliation.

In reality most of us are Mestizos! Beautiful mixtures of European and Native Ancestry.

Thus far, in my personal quest of DNA testing to examine my Native ancestors, I have found:

(1) Cherokee ancestry on both my mother's and father's trees

(2) Metis or Mestizo showing on multiple tests

(3) Apache tribal affiliation

(4) Native American listed in my side comments of my tests.

(5) Matches with Natives of Paraguay

I show a lot of Cherokee results in my tests, yet, truthfully speaking in my family trees I am finding connections to, Powhatan Pamunkey. Also a strong chance my Brown line is Catawba, or from the Sioux speaking nations.

On the other hand, another Direct Y DNA relative swears we are, Algonquian Abenaki Native American on our Brown line which doesn't show on any of my tests.

He may have inherited this ancestry from another relative.

DNA tests cannot prove one exact ancestors tribal affiliation.

Tests can help by giving you clues, and in my opinion, ALL clues are important in your search for discovery.

If you do not show Native results in your DNA tests do not become discouraged, you may have a Native ancestor, it just doesn't show on tests.

Finally, as DNA test databases grow, testing for Native DNA should become a more common a tool with increased relevancy.

I have Native American DNA 1,32%,South West Asian 7.41 % Artic American .52%

Hi I am a 7th generation direct male heir to Rowland Judd I know of two possible links to Native American dna both mentioned being Robin and Elizabeth Owen I come thru the Nathaniel Sr line my dna shows 0.52 Native American 4.3 west Asian 1.15 Siberian and 0.71 oceanian along with a lot of European if you add that up and calculate 7 generation allotment it looks to me like there is a case for Native American ancestry I agree could be more than one wife also would point out Rowland was among the first white people to his part of North Carolina and lived near a Cherokee village long established as I recall
Barney Judd