Lady Joan Fitzgerald, Duchess of Ormond - Lady Joan had no children with Sir Francis Bryan

Is there evidence supporting him as son of Francis Bryan

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bryan-102#Warning Has

This man has been given many fanciful ancestries, as can be seen in online family trees.

Until documentation is discovered or provided, his parents are unknown.

Undocumented, Improbable Tradition

A William Smith Bryan was deported from Ireland by the British govt. and sent to VA, America with his wife and children. One son, Francis Bryan, returned to Ireland in 1650 to try and regain title and estates, but was persecuted and fled to Denmark, where he married and where his son Morgan was born in 1671. Morgan and his father Francis returned to Ireland and Francis died in Belfast in 1694. This account also states Morgan's mother Sarah Bringer or Brinker was Danish, also that Morgan's wife Martha Strode was Dutch, but was a Huguenot refugee, and that they met on the crossing, arrived in 1695, and married shortly after arriving and settled near present-day Reading, PA. In 1710 they moved to near Winchester, VA; and in 1748 Morgan and children moved to the Yadkin River area in NC.

Morgan Bryan / Morragh O’Brien

R1b Haplogroup - P312 / L21 / DF13 / Z253 / Z2534 / L226 / DC63 / DC29

At https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bryan?iframe=yresults

Thanks for the link Erica. I see a lot of mutations in that group, even by people who are listing the same exact Bryan ancestor. This may explain why people are having a hard time confirming ancestry in this line.

You are correct Steve Bryan. Ann Bryan Smythe is a valid person. I researched DNA matches for Bryan, Smith, Fitzgerald and Butler and the DNA matches the pedigree.

The Smith tree on Geni was really messed up.

Private User Re the DNA

My understanding from a few posts is that they are having success matching Morgan Bryant descendants with each other.

IF the theory that he was originally Morragh O’Brien is valid, potential matches in Ireland would need to be reached.

This Smith tree looks better for the Smith / Bryan line but something is still wrong on her parents

Ann Bryan

Do you have a link or reference in regard to Morragh O' Brien Erica? Thank you.

Okay, I looked up the data I have so far and the DNA End Location Number associated with the O' Brien line (High King of Ireland) does not match the DNA End Location Number associated with Bryan (Sir Francis Bryan). They are two separate lines.

Sir Francis Bryan is on chromosome 2 and O' Brien is on chromosome 6 or 12.

Keep in mind that the haplogroup for Sir Francis Bryan may have a fast mutation rate, making it difficult for people who have him as an ancestor to find AT matches.

Research for Sir Francis Bryan found the following descendants and relatives to all match precisely for the same exact end location number on chromosome 2. Not only were these exact matches on chromosome 2, but there are more common ancestors found in the Bryan line than average which gives this line even more credibility. We are usually very lucky to find one or two common ancestors for a line.

John Love Bryan b. 1792, Common Ancestor; Sir Francis Bryan III b. 1630
James Bryant Jr. b. 1686, Common Ancestor; Sir Thomas Bryan II, KT. b. 1464
Parthenia Bryan b. 1793, Common Ancestor, Sir Francis Bryan III b. 1630
Needham Bryan b. 1690, Common Ancestor, William Smith Bryan b. 1599
Sarah Baldwin Bryan b. 1602, Common Ancestor, Sir Francis Bryan m. Joanne Fitzgerald.

Giving the Bryan line additional weight, AT DNA matches have been found for Smythe on chromosome 10 for a specific matching end location number as follows:

Jane Smythes b. 1590, m. Barnard, Common Ancestor: Alice Smith Watson (Ann Bryan Smiths parents are Sir William Smith and Alice Smith Watson) Ann Smith/Smythe Bryan b. 1650 is on the other end of the match.

Mary Jenney (Smythe) b. 1562, HAPLOGROUP YDNA R1b1a2a1a1b
Common Ancestor: John Richard Smythe, Esq., High Sheriff of Essex b. circa 1490-1495. Ann Smith/Smythe Bryan b. 1650 is on the other end of the match.

Ann (Smythe) Tylney b. circa 1625/1626, common ancestor NN. Ann Smith/Smythe Bryan is on the other end of this match. Ann Smythe Tylney is a biological match.

Now the Fitzgerald's because Bryan children do not exist without Joanne Fitzgerald.

Fitzgerald is also found on chromosome 2 with a different "End Location Number".

Lady Alice Fitzgerald b. circa 1466, Common ancestor: Geroid Mór FitzGerald, 8th Earl of Kildare, Joane Fitzgerald, Sir Francis Bryan's Wife is on the other end of this match.

Richard Baron of Burnchurch Fitzgerald, b. 1550, Common ancestor: Maurice FitzGerald, Lord of Lanstephan b. 1100, Joane Fitzgerald, Sir Francis Bryan's Wife is on the other end of this match.

Lady Eleanor Fitzgerald b. circa 1490, Common Ancestor: Geroid Mór FitzGerald, 8th Earl of Kildare, Joane Fitzgerald, Sir Francis Bryan's Wife is on the other end of this match.

O' Brien is found on chromosome 6 and chromosome 12 for a specific end location number. Because both sets of matches claim the same common ancestor, this line is inconclusive. The common ancestor found in both sets of matches is Turlough O Brian. Chromosome 6 matches are older but have more SNPs. Chromosome 12 matches are more recent with an average number of SNPs in relation to the cM. O' Brien is a very old line which means more variables. For now, it is not confirmed. However neither the chromosome 6 or chromosome 12 matches for O' Brien match Bryan. They are distinctly different.

Wanda, Justin already told you (in a different discussion) that the science of DNA studying is not yet so far advanced that it can pinpoint specific ancestors as specifically as all that. I see you didn't listen.

Absolutely anything can be abused/misinterpreted by people who want to prove a point - and that includes DNA findings.

Maven, this is innovative technology. Not abuse. The innovation is based off the ability of computer algorithm's ability to match, DNA segments and Surnames. We still have to do the research. As you have not studied the method, do not know how to do it, do not know how it works and do not know the variables, you can only assume whatever it is you assume.

I'm not a child, I am full grown adult so I don't need someone to "tell me" that I have to go with what someone else said or to not to think for myself. Justin doesn't talk down to me. He is very nice and respectful and has a wonderful way of communicating.

I have a mind of my own. I am an entrepreneur. I am an inventor. I innovate. It's what entrepreneur's do. My innovation was created from a purpose to seek a better way to find our ancestors and find out "why" we get all those matches to people on family finder yet they don't all appear to be related to us in a uniform way. I researched and studied the DNA matching, read everything I could then I spent about a year looking for a pattern. I found that pattern to be the End Location Number. I found that the End Location Number is relevant to the surname and the Start Location Number is a variable that can change in relation to the cM and the cM is of course is relevant to the distance of the common ancestor. When you find a match,you have to find at least three matches for a surname to the end location number for it to be considered a valid pattern. Haplogroups can have many, many surnames associated with them.

I don't understand your last paragraph comment at all. Are you trying to say people will abuse this method or that people will misinterpret the results or that people will abuse DNA findings?

Granted we are still in the beginning stages of research but like anything else that is new, it takes time to gather enough data to be 100% certain about anything and we can only be certain of what we now right now this minute. That can all change tomorrow. You and all the other curators have nothing to go on right now except paper trails, hearsay and opinions. This method can help find answers to questions like "Did Sir Francis Bryan really have a child"? or "Is Ann Smythe Bryan a real person in history"? or How to connect broken tree's when records are missing, lost or destroyed.

This is the future. I know you can't see it, but I can. I will probably be long dead before anyone can see the whole picture but it is coming. I expect it may take several lifetimes of mapping to get most of the human race mapped out, depending on how many people participate. Our DNA is not some 50-50 scenario, but a mosaic of all our ancestors who lived before us. The Science of DNA is already advanced enough that surnames can be mapped to haplogroups as you can see in any YDNA group. This isn't all that different other than it is more specific, but again, it does take research and effort because as Justin implies "Variables do exist" and sometimes the person you though you had figured out is actually someone else. That can happen, but collaboration and a preponderance of evidence can eliminate those occasional mis-haps as well as confirming a line via the common ancestor when you do map out a surname.

Here’s the discussion about Morragh OBrien

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bryan-102#DNA_Note

So I have reached a few new conclusions.

1) Morgan Bryan is probably an anglicized name for a person whose direct and/or collateral ancestors included persons named Morrogh O'Brien, who lived in county Clare. There seems to be no other place in Ireland that produced anyone of that name in the land-owning class close to the time he was born (ca. 1671).

2) Some of these O'Briens were Roman Catholic and others (the Inchiquin branch) were converted Anglicans, but they were all royalist. They all supported the Kilkenny confederacy in the war with Cromwell ca. 1649-1651.

3) Despite the war and its aftermath there were still plenty of O'Briens around county Clare in 1659 owning land, e.g., the three Morrogh O'Briens above-mentioned, one in Quin parish, towns of Ballyroughane and Rathlubby, barony of Bunratty; one in Clonlea parish, town of Gortacorky, barony of Tulla; and one in Kilmacrehy parish, town of Ballyvrislane, barony of Crocomroe, as well as many other O'Briens with names like Turlogh, Teige, etc. They did not all leave voluntarily, or get deported, and lose their lands thereby. Or if they did, many of them were back a few years later, owning land again.

4) If the father of Morgan Bryan was someone named "Francis Bryan III," it indicates the onset of new naming customs in his generation. None of Morgan Bryan's own children or grandchildren bore the name Francis. On the other hand, none of them had names like Thaddeus, Dennis, or Donald, either. There was a grandchild named Daniel, probably after Daniel Boone. Nevertheless, I stick by my earlier conclusion that he is obviously unrelated to the Englishman Sir Francis Bryan. Even if his father was called Francis, he probably was not the third, and he may not even have used the surname Bryan. He was almost certainly an O'Brien, even if someone in the lineage changed the surname to Bryan at some point.

5) I see no evidence of a connection to a Smith or Morgan family in Morgan Bryan's past. I suspect that the surname "Morgan" was invented to explain why he bore that given name. I have not seen a single document that gives an original source for that surname. I suspect that Smith is another invention, because of the fame of William Smith O'Brien. Again, I have seen no sources for the Smith name.

6) One question I still cannot answer is which branch of the O'Briens of county Clare Morgan Bryan belongs to. O'Hart records a pedigree of the O'Briens of Corcomroe barony, which includes Carruduff (Carrowduff, "dark quarter), which includes one of the untraced Morrogh O'Briens. The Corcomroe O'Brien's story is similar to one of the stories told about Morgan's ancestors, that they were forced to leave after the victory of the Cromwell faction, but later recovered their lands (only to lose them again after the battle of the Boyne). So this might be the most promising possibility, but it is still only a guess.

7) Although I have committed these ideas to paper and published them on message boards to stimulate research, I reserve the right to make further corrections when I have better information!

I updated Francis Bryan, (died young) with Steve Bryan's quote I am so glad he troubled to find.

I have to admit (because it's fun) I am really curious now to know what became of this "very rich and well connected to the Crown of England" child.

Nothing good, I am certain.

Morgan is a Welsh name, not an Irish name. Catherine Morgan Bryan has many Bryan and Boone family as well as Welsh Morgan family. Naturally, you can't name all your children Francis. The surname Morgan is used as first name for him, probably to honor a Morgan ancestor. Morrogh being an Irish name may be a Gaelic surname and and some McCarthy's have it attached to their name but it is a far stretch to make an Irish name like Morrogh into a Welsh name like Morgan.

Whether Morgan Bryan is a Bryan, I do not know yet as far as DNA goes, but only because his descendants may not have tested with FTDNA, family finder, so it's not fair to eliminate him until more is known. His last name is Bryan, not Morgan.

I have found more than one connection between Smythe and Strode. These family's apparently knew each other well enough that more than one marriage has occurred. The Smythes, Bryan's, Boones, Morgan's and even Strode's are all inextricably connected to each other through marriages as well as autosomal DNA segments.

Smith and Smythe are a lot of fun to sort out. Even more fun with a Smith marries a Smythe to make it even more challenging. Smythe was easy enough to find but Smith is a lot harder and much more time consuming as it is one of the most popular surnames in the world.

Someone needs to take a closer look at ALL of Joan Fitzgerald's Children. I see some of those kids being born before her and some being born when she is 61 yrs. old.

Thank you, all your hard work is appreciated very much.

Though it is true that Morgan is usually a Welsh name, it also appears in Ireland, sometimes of course as an import from Wales, but also as an Englishing of O’Muireagain.

The research notes are claiming that Morgan is an anglicized version of Morragh and there is no indication of Welsh ancestry at all, and that the Morgan surname was grafted to fabricate the pedigree.

I’m one hard working curator here so fixes are on request by profile link. The first step though that any member can take is to check the profile for data conflicts to resolve. The Butler & Fitzgerald children correct dates should be fine from Wikipedia, if someone wants to do more detailed and careful sourcing, I’d suggest using the Fitzgerald pedigree, link posted from JSTOR (probably light on dates though). I’ll repost the link citation.

http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00112140&tree=LEO Is a well sourced database, I see the children birthdates are frequently not listed.

JOURNAL ARTICLE
No. 2. The Earls of Desmond

James Graves
The Journal of the Historical and Archaeological Association of Ireland
Third Series, Vol. 1, No. 2 (1869), pp. 459-498
Published by: Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/25497799

Can download a PDF, there are extensive charts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Fitzgerald,_Countess_of_Ormond Has no Bryan or Fitzgerald children (neither does Leo van de Pass)

James and Joan had seven sons:
Thomas Butler, 10th Earl of Ormond (c.1532- 22 November 1614), married firstly Elizabeth Berkeley; secondly, Elizabeth Sheffield, by whom he had issue; thirdly, Helen Barry
John Butler of Kilcash (died 10 May 1570), married Katherine MacCartie, by whom he had a son, Walter Butler, 11th Earl of Ormond.
Edward Butler, married Mary Bourke, by whom he had issue.
Walter Butler, married and had one daughter.
Sir Edmund Butler (1534–1602), married Eleanor Eustace, by whom he had issue.
James Butler of Duiske
Piers Butler

(I disconnected the time traveling Butler children)

No known children of Joan Fitzgerald and Gerald FitzJames Fitzgerald, 14th Earl of Desmond

His 7 children were with his 2nd wife, Hon. Eleanor Butler, of Dunboyne

Their two boys did not have children

http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00112144&tree=LEO

Awny FitzMaurice Missing a husband and her Irish name. Moved daughter Honora to (I think) the correct spot as daughter of 9th Earl of Desmond

I took my own suggestion and added from “The Earls of Desmond” as sources to the Desmond family. It resolved the question about Honora FitzGerald; they place her as a half sister of Joan, and Joan was heir of her father.

One more reference

http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/desmond1329.htm

Much better. Thank you for cleaning up those wrongfully added children. It always surprising that people are able to add those to an MP profile when they are clearly wrong.

All the curators work very hard and are very much appreciated.

One was a bad merge, I think. We have more tools now to lock relationships but of course it’s slow work to get the MP relationships locked, and there were in fact more profiles needed in this area (2nd spouses). And yet, no new profile should be added before 1600 without a valid source / citation (not a tree or a FindAGrave page).

With everyone’s help we’ll get there.

the Morgan Bryan/Daniel Boone line aside, my line of Mary Lee (BRYAN) is also thrown into suspect, in this conversation. Hmm.

Post a link?

The comment by Sir Francis Bryan about his "son the poore boy" may have referred to the son who is mentioned in the diaries of French Ambassador Odet de Selve--since he was old enough to be delivering dispatches in 1548, he could not have been the son of Lady Joan.

He would be about the right age to be a son of first wife Philippa Spice Fortescue, but probate records only mention her son Henry Fortescue, so it appears Sir Francis did not have a child with his first wife, either.

If the son who carried the dispatch was illegitimate, Sir Francis calling him "the poore boy" makes sense (an illegitimate son could not inherit--poor boy, indeed!). Since we already have proof of one son of Sir Francis, we shouldn't assume that this "poore boy" is Lady Joan's son.

Is there anything else documenting that "the poore boy" was a child with Lady Joan?

--------------------

Justin Swanstrom found a friend to translate this passage, copied from a previous (2015) discussion on Sir Francis Bryan (thanks again!):

Stratham, 16 septembre. — Selve a reçu il y a trois jours la dépèche que l'amiral lui a envoyée par le fils de sir Francis Bryan, lequel est arrivé sain et sauf avec et sauf avec un des gens de Selve à Londres, d'où il est reparti pour aller retrouver son père. << Ledict sieur de Bryant a depuis peu de temps espousé une vefve irlandoise nommée la comtesse de Ouar- mont et s'en va en Irlande en partye pour voir le bien de sa femme mais principalement comme je cuyde depesché pour les affaires de ce roy. » Il répète à l'amiral le refus du protecteur de donner une garantie plus catégorique à la flotte de pêche française, sous prétexte qu'un tel acte ferait accuser le roi d'Angleterre de pusillanimité, et l'avise de la saisie des 10 ou 12 navires français signalée à Douvres.
Correspondance politique de Odet de Selve: ambassadeur de France en Angleterre (1546-1549)

I begged a favor from a good friend, and got the following:

Strathem, 16 September. Selve has received three days ago the dispatch that the admiral has sent to him by the son of Sir Francis Bryan, who has arrived safe and sound and sent with one of Selve’s people to London, from which he has left again to go find his father. “The said sire of Bryant has recently married an Irish widow named the Comtesse de Ouarmont and goes to Ireland partly to see to the wellbeing of his wife but principally … to see to the affairs of the king.“ He repeats to the admiral the refusal of a protector to give a guarantee more categorically to the French fleet, under the pretext that such an act would be to accuse the king of England of faintheartedness, and the advice of the seizure of 10-12 French ships signaled to Douvres.
Political Correspondence of Odet de Selve, ambassador of France in England, 1546-49

The relationship path between cousin Marvin and me shows his Bryan-Lee line, and my Bryan-Mooring-Croom line:

https://www.geni.com/path/Amy-Nordahl-Cote+is+related+to+Marvin-Wel...

Marvin Loyd Welborn is my 10th cousin--or double-10th cousin, but the relationship path only shows my Lewis Bryan line, and not my line from brother Edward Bryan m. Christian Council. We also have a small (10.8 cM) DNA match. Can't tell if it's "Bryan DNA"; there are so many old colonial lines on both sides.

yes, but it 'Must' be close, Amy. I suspect it's the atDNA with the Bryan/Croom marriage. Since Croom would not affect me, but Bryan would 'touch' us both, it must be the Bryan DNA.

....and, Amy, as a consequence of Lady Joan Fitzgerald, the subject of this discussion, is now disconnected as a possible ancestor to the Bryans, it leaves us with a brick wall: Who was the mother of Francis Bryan II? BTW, Amy, it is through these Bryans, who descend from Bouchier, that they also descend from the Plantagenet lines.