Francois Joseph Savoie SOLVED

Hi Bill. Great work here. I jumped the gun when I said she may be a decendant of Phillip II but i do think there is a connection farther up th Hapsburg Hojse of Savoie lines.

We might have stumbled upon another Francois Joseph Savoie "region".

Here are the Chromosome 22, Location 19M to 24M results for the 6 Savoies vs. MJW:

Savoie C (5.9 cM) = 9.8 MRCA
Savoie J (6.4 cM) = 9.0 MRCA
Savoie P1 (5.9 cM) = 9.8 MRCA
Savoie D (6.4 cM) = 9.0 MRCA
Savoie P2 (6.4 cM) = 9.0 MRCA
Savoie T (4.9 cM) = 11.8 MRCA

Average (6.0 cM) = 9.7 MRCA

Just remember, Gedmatch estimates are known to deviate from the actual by as much as 3 generations.

So, the actual MRCA distance will theoretically range from 6.7 to 12.7.

If I remember it correctly, the paper distance of the 6 Savoies from Francois Joseph is 11 generations.

The foregoing, therefore, can support the assertion that MJW and the 6 Savoies have a common early Acadian ancestor.

Sharon,

The actual example you gave on the Botha-Appel case might be one of the practical reasons for close inter-marriages among royal families.

Even if a royal male is cuckolded, the offspring will still carry royal genes.

I compared Michael's mom to the 6 Savoies. But the results were not encouraging for the original Francois Joseph Savoie "region" of Chromosome 1, Location 155M to 161M. Only J Savoie produced a match of 2.0 cM or larger.

So, I used the new "region" of Chromosome 22, Location 19M to 24M. Three (3) Savoies did not still produce a match at the minimum 1.0 cM threshold. Here are the results for the 3 Savoies that produced a match:

Savoie C (4.4 cM) = 13.1 MRCA
Savoie P1 (4.4 cM) = 13.1 MRCA
Savoie T (8.1 cM) = 7.1 MRCA

Average (5.6 cM) = 10.3 MRCA

If I remember it correctly, according to Joseph, the paper distance of the 6 Savoies from Francois Joseph is 11 generations.

I compared Michael with T Savoie at Chromosome 22, Location 19M to 24M. And the 8.1 cM match of his mom at that location is down to only 3.4 cM.

That's how random the genetic lottery is.

It seems that there is another Savoy descendant among the early settlers of New France. This is Rene de la Voye who settled in Quebec.

According to Geni, he is the great grandson of Henri I de Savoie.

His son Jean-Francois married Marie-Madeleine Boucher.

I finally found a Boucher descendant of Francois Joseph Savoie at Geni. This is the descending lineage:

Francois Joseph Savoie
Germain
Francois
Jean-Baptiste
Marie-Madeline
Angelique Savoie-Hebert
Pierre Hebert-Boucher

Pierre Boucher produced 2 sons according to Geni.

I guess this completes the puzzle of my Comeau and Boucher matches.

Bill, how do you match up with Betinna from Austria?

I just looked at my moms ftdna link. She has 2 5th cousin - remote cousin.
Evelyn Wisenbaker Savoie and Paul Frederic Savoie. Are these two included here? I dont see trees for them or gedmatch numbers.

Paul Savoie is my mother's brother, one of the Six Savoies. Bettina from Austria thinks that the connection from her to the House of Savoies is through Ludwig Rudolf (Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel), her ancestor from the House of Blankenburg.

So did Paul test through ancestory and ftdna or are they linked? I thought they all tested through ancestory. Ftdna says mom and Paul share 27cM and the other lady 35cM. I
Thought it might be another Paul.

Thanks Bill Gabunia Debuque

I rechecked my Geni connections, and it appears that I'm actually a direct descendant of Charles Emmnuel I Duc de Savoie himself, Francois Joseph's grandfather.

I'm related to his father Tomasso on both sides - Charles Emmanuel I (direct descendant, 15 generations distance) and Catalina Micaela Emanuele (through Felipe II, 16 generations distance).

Your analysis. has been very helpful in solving the Francios Joseph Savoie mystery,thank you!

So you are descendant of King Phillip II of Spain, Francios Savoie's great grandfather and his paternal grandfather Charles Emmnuel .Charles Emmnuel was known as "Iron Head " for his skill as a soldier.

Okay, Eileen Winifred Warren II asked me to look into the SA Savoye connection further.

Her mother, Danielle, and my father are all paper trail descendants of Mahieu de Savoye# as follows:

Marrianne Magdelena Jacobs Warren is Mahieu de Savoye's 11th great granddaughter.
Mahieu de Savoye
→ Jacques de Savoye
his son → Julien de Savoye
his son → Jacques de Savoye, SV/PROG
his son → Marguerite -Thérèse de Savoye, b4 PROG1
his daughter → Henning Viljoen, ii b3c4
her son → Johannes Viljoen, b3c4d2
his son → Anna Magdalena Viljoen de Beer, b3c4d2e8
his daughter → Anna Magdalena de Beer Muller, a2b6c12d2
her daughter → Matthys Andries de Beer Mulder, b3
her son → Matthys Andries de Beer Mulder, b3c5
his son → Anna Magdalena Mulder Jacobs, (d?c5b3a11)
his daughter → Matthys Andries de Beer Jacobs
her son → Marrianne Magdelena Jacobs Warren
his daughter

Danielle le Marais is Mahieu de Savoye's 12th great granddaughter.
Mahieu de Savoye
→ Jacques de Savoye
his son → Julien de Savoye
his son → Jacques de Savoye, SV/PROG
his son → Marguerite -Thérèse de Savoye, b4 PROG1
his daughter → Susanna Snyman Kutzer, b8 SM
her daughter → Wentzel Christoffel Coetzer, b6
her son → Jacoba Susanna Coetzer Horak
his daughter → Anna Maria Horak Louw, b4c4
her daughter → Jacoba Susanna Frick du Preez, b1c2d4
her daughter → Anna Maria du Preez Kersop
her daughter → Maria Magdalena Kersop Marais
her daughter → George Jacobus Marais
her son → Joysina Christina Symington Marais
his daughter → Danielle le Marais
her daughter

Dion Andre Doubell is Mahieu de Savoye's 10th great grandson.
Mahieu de Savoye
→ Jacques de Savoye
his son → Julien de Savoye
his son → Jacques de Savoye, SV/PROG
his son → Marguerite -Thérèse de Savoye, b4 PROG1
his daughter → Henning Viljoen, ii b3c4
her son → Albertus Viljoen
his son → Henning Johannes Viljoen b3c4d11e1
his son → Jacoba Maria Viljoen Pienaar, e1f7
his daughter → Jacoba Christina Maria Pienaar
her daughter → Willem Christiaan Botha
her son → Johanna Elizabeth Botha Doubell
his daughter → Dion Andre Doubell
her son

However, my father (Kit T432826 (Dion Doubell)) shows no significant DNA matches to either Danielle or Eilleen/her Mom, Marianne, despite being a paper trail relative of both on another line as well as the Savoye descent:

Danielle le Marais is your 8th cousin.
You
→ Dion Andre Doubell
your father → Johanna Elizabeth Botha Doubell
his mother → Hesther Jacoba Maria Theron Botha
her mother → Johanna Elizabeth Weidemann
her mother → Andries Christiaan Weidemann, b2c8
her father → Johanna "Anna" Nieuwoudt, b5c1
his mother → Johannes Nieuwoudt, b5
her father → Anna van Wijk, a2b5 SM
his mother → Willem van Wijk, SV/PROG 2
her father → Gerrit Willemsz van Wijk
his son → Elsje van Wyk, a2b3c7
his daughter → Geertruyda Margaretha Coetzee Kruger, b7c3d2
her daughter → Cornelis Jacobus Coetzee, a1b7c8d6e3
her son → Martha Maria Coetzee Symington
his daughter → Josina Christina Symington Maritz
her daughter → Josina Christina Maritz Marais
her daughter → Joysina Christina Symington Marais
her daughter → Danielle le Marais
her daughter

Marrianne Magdelena Jacobs Warren is your 9th cousin once removed.
You
→ Dion Andre Doubell
your father → Johanna Elizabeth Botha Doubell
his mother → Hesther Jacoba Maria Theron Botha
her mother → Barend Bartolomeus Theron
her father → Hester Jacoba Maria Burger Theron
his mother → Rachel Maria Dippenaar
her mother → Anna Smit Dippenaar
her mother → Rachel Jordaan Smit, b3c8
her mother → Rachel Niel Jourdan, b4
her mother → Marie Madeleine Marais Niel, b4 SM
her mother → Charles Marais, b2
her brother → Debora Marais, b2c5
his daughter → Debora du Toit Blom, A2b8c6
her daughter → Anna Eleonora de Villiers
her daughter → Margaretha Jacoba de Beer, a2b7c9d2
her daughter → Dina Margaretha Wilhelmina Nel Mulder, e7f5
her daughter → Matthys Andries de Beer Mulder, b3c5
her son → Anna Magdalena Mulder Jacobs, (d?c5b3a11)
his daughter → Matthys Andries de Beer Jacobs
her son → Marrianne Magdelena Jacobs Warr

So, my father's DNA will prove nothing here.

(He doesn't match to any of the Savoye kits posted by Joseph Bolton either, and I don't think Bill Gabunia Debuque posted a kit no.

My paper trail link to him at the mo:
Bill Gabunia Debuque is your 22nd cousin once removed.
You
→ Dion Andre Doubell
your father → Joel Michael Doubell
his father → Mary Anne Smuts Doubell
his mother → Mary Ann Jones Smuts
her mother → Emily Howard Jones, b5
her mother → William Howard, SV/PROG
her father → William Howard
his father → Abraham Howard, Sr.
his father → John Howard
his father → Thomas Hoard
his father → Edmund Hoard, III
his father → Edward Hord, II
his father → Edmund Hord Hoord, I
his father → Alan Hoorde,
his father → John Hord, of Bridgenorth
his father → Joyce Stapleton
his mother → Sir John Stapleton
her father → Cecily Bardolf Stapleton
his mother → Sir William Bardolf, 4th Lord Bardolph of Wormgay
her father → Elizabeth Bardolf - de Raleigh (d'Amory)
his mother → Elizabeth de Clare
her mother → Joan of Acre
her mother → Edward II of England
her brother → Edward III of England
his son → John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster
his son → Filipa de Lencastre, rainha consorte de Portugal
his daughter → Duarte I o Eloquente, rei de Portugal
her son → Fernando de Portugal, duque de Viseu
his son → Isabel de Viseu
his daughter → Jaime de Bragança, 4º duque de Bragança
her son → Joana de Bragança
his daughter → Bernardo de Cardenas, III duque de Maqueda
her son → Ana María de Cárdenas y Manrique de Lara
his daughter → Maria de Lencastre, 6° duquesa de Aveiro
her daughter → Joaquin Ponce de León Lencastre y Cárdenas, VII. duque de Arcos
her son → Antonio Ponce de León, XI duque de Arcos
his son → Pablo Ponce de Leon
his son → Vicente Ponce de Leon
his son → Consolacion Ponce de Leon Ponce de Leon Austria
his daughter → Pablo Ponce de Leon Austria
her son → Marcelina Austria - Zambales
his daughter → Jane (Juana) Zambales Zambales - Arguelles
her daughter → Apolinaria Arguelles Arguelles - Gabunia
her daughter → Irene Arguelles Gabunia
her daughter → Edna Magalona Gabunia
her daughter → Bill Gabunia Debuque
her son

However, Danielle, Eileen and her Mom are DNA matches to one another at 8.8cm and 8.9cm

Danielle & Eileen also have at least one paper trail connection that isn't through the Savoyes too:
Marrianne Magdelena Jacobs Warren is Danielle le Marais' 7th cousin once removed.
Danielle le Marais
→ Joysina Christina Symington Marais
her mother → Josina Christina Maritz Marais
her mother → Erasmus Jacobus Maritz, g5
her father → Elizabeth Maria Gouws Maritz
his mother → Elizabeth Maria Joubert, b8c1d8e1f1
her mother → Martha Maria Margaretha Bosman Joubert, b7c4d1
her mother → Elizabeth Joubert Bosman, b8c1d11
her mother → Margaretha du Toit, b2c2
her mother → Debora du Toit Blom, A2b8c6
her sister → Anna Eleonora de Villiers
her daughter → Margaretha Jacoba de Beer, a2b7c9d2
her daughter → Dina Margaretha Wilhelmina Nel Mulder, e7f5
her daughter → Matthys Andries de Beer Mulder, b3c5
her son → Anna Magdalena Mulder Jacobs, (d?c5b3a11)
his daughter → Matthys Andries de Beer Jacobs
her son → Marrianne Magdelena Jacobs Warren
his daughter

But if I run a one to one comparison between Eilleen/ her Mom and Thomas, Joan Carol, david, Paul, Phyllis Savoye - I get no shared segments at the minimum 7cm threshold.

Similarly, nothing shared between Danielle and all those Savoyes (including Joan and Paul) at the min of 7cm.

Am I missing something. Is under 7cm still a significant connection?

Re. DNA, sometimes a confirmed paper trail doesn't always show up in a significant amount of DNA..For example: I have relatives in Australia who I am related to via a confirmed paper trail that goes back to Scotland..Of the four siblings, I have reasonable amounts of DNA shared with three of the siblings, which I have found on a couple of DNA sites we are all on..However, with the fourth sibling, I only share 3.1 cms, but it is in the same location, albeit this smaller amount..I think it has been mentioned here before, about how random DNA is..Another point: Although I share some Indian ancestry with Sharon (& many others who she & I are connected to via S. A.) going back, this has never come through in the DNA sites I have tested with..It doesn't mean it's not there though, or that my tree is wrong.

7cm is for imediate (close) family. The grandparents we share are many generations away. We will only have a very small amount of their dna so you need to measure at a lower cm reading. At 3cm you dad does have matches to them.

Yes, Danielle, it doesn't mean the paper trail is wrong at all. It means we haven't inherited the same packages of genes - which is quite likely, given the distance of our paper trail relationship.
We're 8th cousins , and from 6 th cousins they say the expected share is only 0.01% (Not going to show).

Of course the other fun thing about White South Africans is their inbredness (politely 'consanguinity') that often shows up as closer matches than any one paper trail should produce.

Eileen, this is what I think. Bill is relying on the fact that he knows he is only 3% European and that his only European paper trail is to the Savoyes - so the connection to living Canadian Savoyes proves something significant.

We're all (including Joseph's Savoye aunts and uncles) very much more European than 3%, so matches under 7cm between us prove nothing more significant than that we all come out of the European population.

This is what I think - I may be wrong.

"For segments under 6 cMs, there is as high as a 95% chance that the match is purely coincidental."
http://whoareyoumadeof.com/blog/2018/01/02/how-can-my-son-match-som... (very useful article.)

You have also to consider "bunching" in analyzing smaller DNA segments. In one actual case I encountered, for example, I have a 7.1 cM match with someone at the same Chromosome 1 "Savoie location" I have been using as a benchmark. For her sister, however, I got instead two smaller matches adjacent to one another at the same location - a 3.1 cM and a 3.3.cM.

So even if your match with someone is less than 7 cM (but more than 3 cM), as long as they are bunched together in a particular location, in all likelihood, you are related.

The person I matched above has no known roots in Acadia. The only common roots we identified at that time was the Palatinate region of Germany, where her oldest known ancestor lived in the early 1700s. So we thought it might be a Wittelsbach match through an illegitimate line.

But knowing what I know now, it could also be a Savoy match through an illegitimate line.

Prince Eugene and other Savoys were active in the Rhine region in the early 1700s.

What I have found really intruiging is that I have a DNA match, on here, (Geni) & also on FTDNA..His name is Hugh Lavery, some of you may have come across the name..Anyway, according to Geni we are 17th cousins once removed..Yet despite that distance in time, we are a DNA match..Now Hugh is from America, & according to Geni, we are descended from one of my Scottish (Hamilton) lines..However, Hugh just also happens to descend also, from, yes you've guessed: Francois Savoie!....

Anyway, I have contacted him to see if he is on Gedmatch..Here's hoping!

Danielle,

If he is on Gedmatch, try to see how do you match in the possible "Francois Savoie regions" we have identified so far:

Chromo 1 - Loc 155M to 161M
Chromo 22 - Loc 19M to 24M

Sorry...Forgot to add here Hugh Lavery's Gedmatch kit number (descendant of Francois Savoie) ..It is: T956496.

As I mentioned on the previous Francois Savoie thread, my wife's ancestry charts back to Francois Savoie, Her DNA analysis suggests she is 95% French (French-Canadian) and 5% from Spain. This is the only line going back 8 generations that has any hint of Spanish blood. I am unable to read DNA code any better than what Ancestry tells me. I would be glad to share the results if someone wants to get involved.

Hi Cousin, recently the DNA evidence has been accumulating toward Francois Joseph Savoie being the son of Tomaso of the House of Savoy