Elizabeth (Cherokee ?) Black

I see a comment here:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/4:1:LVQL-XRT

“Many descendants claim that Elizabeth, the wife of Thomas Black, was either full-blood, half, or quarter Cherokee; however, three mitochondrial DNA tests for descendants from three different daughters of Esther Blacks, show that Esther (and thus her mother Elizabeth)'s mtDNA haplogroup is "H" which is a European haplogroup, not a Native American haplogroup. Therefore, Elizabeth cannot be full-blood Cherokee, and if she was Cherokee at all, it had to come from either her father, or mother's father's side of the family. The mtDNA tests prove that Esther's mitochondrial ancestor was European, not Cherokee. — Tom Kryssbek (2017).
All records located thus far about Elizabeth do not provide her family name (it was not Ramsey!), and only call her by the name Elizabeth (never Esther).”

Here’s the Probate file for Thomas Benjamin Black his widow Elizabeth is mentioned as now the wife of Morris Cox

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"North Carolina Estate Files, 1663-1979," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VH6X-5VR : 12 March 2018), Thomas Black, 1779; citing Lincoln, North Carolina, United States, State Archives, Raleigh; FHL microfilm 2,297,089.

Oglethorpe, Georgia is almost two hundred miles from the Cherokee part of Georgia. In the mid-1700’s most Cherokee lived in what are now Tennessee and North Carolina. There were only a handful of white traders with Cherokee families before 1750, and their Cherokee children lived in the Cherokee Nation with their mothers. There is nothing to suggest any Cherokee connection for the Black family.

Thomas Black died 1779 is Lincoln County, NC. (I’ve been adding citations). There’s a comment that daughter Rachel Cobb had Cherokee noted in her Marriage record but I sure can’t see it https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XFS4-M62

I also suspect the Thomas G. Black profile is an error but I’m not sure who Thomas Black’s parents were.

Ok, here’s the rumor - about a Benjamin (not Thomas) Black & “unknown woman” as parents of Rachel (Black) Cobb

http://cobbsasser.com/luvacuzn/cobbSam1AmbroseRachel.html

My brother, Dean Hunt works as a Historian in Lexington, S.C.'s University of South Carolina. He also, is in a Cherokee and Indigenous preservation Society, in cooperation with Indigenous Tribesmen.
They have located a number of Indigenous mounds and sites, in S.C., too, with even more artifacts. They work to place the time period and to which tribes, these belong to. His partner in this project, is Cherokee.

We are both also, 6-7% NA, per dna, but it likely is inherited, from our paternal branch. It's my maternal branch is the Cox Branch.

Eliza M Black
in the U.S., Native American Applications for Enrollment in Five Civilized Tribes (overturned), 1896
Name: Eliza M Black
Tribe: Cherokee
Application Number: 5423
Roll number: 1
Roll Description: Roll 01 - Master Index
Source Information
Ancestry.com. U.S., Native American Applications for Enrollment in Five Civilized Tribes (overturned), 1896 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2008.

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1238&a...

Hey Theresa Renée Eléna Tossas-Cox I didn’t know your DNA testing was showing that much.

Lincoln County is not near the Cherokee Nation. There is nothing on the marriage bond about Rachel except her name. A man named Thomas Black got a grant of 200 acres in Mecklenburg County in 1762; Lincoln County was originally part of Mecklenburg, so it's likely this this the correct man. Thomas Black received a patent in 1775. Thomas had a wife named Elizabeth who married a man named Cox after his death. There was a dispute about the land between Elizabeth's second husband and Thomas's heirs. Nobody was Cherokee, everybody was white, living and owning land in Lincoln County. The documents are available on Ancestry.

More notes in a profile just merged in for Esther Thompson

I will add the comment about DNA testing to it.

Note that her mother in profile is called Hester, but the wife of Thomas Black d 1779 was Elizabeth.

As recorded in the Lincoln County Court of Pleas and Quarter Sessions:
July Court 1779
On motion of Henry Gifford, Esq. ordered that Letters of Administration issue to Elizabeth Black, relict of Thomas Black decd, with James Miller on all and singular the goods and chattels, rights and credits of the said deceased who gave bond of £12,000 with Mr. Gilbert, Henry Reynolds, Lawrence Kyzer & John Carpenter as securites. [7]
October Court 1779
George Lamkin, Sheriff, on behalf of Elizabeth Black and James Miller, administrators of Thomas Black decd, returns into Court an Inventory of Sales and said deceased’s estate amounting to £7,701.11 which was filed in this office.
On 21 May 1797, the same day as her marriage to Morris Cox], she gifted the Broad River plantation to her son-in-law, Ambrose Cobb (husband of Rachel Black).
1139. May 21, 1797 Elizabeth Black (Lincoln Co) to Ambrose Cobb; for love and affection gave 3 horses: (1) brown bay mare 13.5 hands high branded with a “B” 15 years old, (2) a sorrel mare 14 hands high 8 years old branded with a “B”, and (3) a sorrel horse 3 years old, a colt branded with a “B” , 14 “barned” cattle, all hogs & sheep, all bedding & household furniture & farming utensils, & all “my” property of any kind, and her dower rights to “plantation” where she lives being where Thomas Black lived & died; condition: (1) property given in trust for Elizabeth’s use, (2) 500£ bond for Ambrose reporting to Elizabeth about the proper use of the property, & (3) Elizabeth keeps the interest gained on the property. Signed Elizabeth Black’s mark. Witness Wallace Alexander, Saml Carpenter & John Crouse. Wit. oath Oct. 1799 by Wallace Alexander. Book 19 p. 280.

Thomas and Elizabeth had three children, Joseph, Ephraim, and Rachel, all mentioned in court records, and possibly a fourth, a daughter Martha.

Wonderful extract, thank you.

I am not yet seeing Fanny McCord as a member of this Thomas Black family (son of David & perhaps Jane, David being of perhaps Northern Ireland).

http://iagenweb.org/page/famrecd/McCord/page6.htm

The following deed in Book 39 Page 302 is convincing evidence that the Robert McCord who marries Fanney Black is the same who lived in Bond County. This indenture made 1 October 1841 between William Black, John Black, the Heirs of Thomas G. Black and Robert McCord in right of his wife Fanny all by their agent and attorney in fact, William J. Wilson of Lincoln County in the State of North Carolina. Ann Lewis, Eleanor Espey, John Gordon and his wife, Ruth, all heirs in law of the Real Estate of Ealinor Witherspoon deceased of the party of the first part sold to John S. McCutchen for $453 all their residual rights in a tract of land on the waters of the Little Catawba Creek which had been conveyed to Eleanor Witherspoon by the last will and testament of John Band (Baird?) deceased and subsequently conveyed by James Witherspoon through Stowe families to John S. McCutchen...This indenture gives the names of Fann(e)y's brothers and sister as William, John, possibly Thomas G. but I believe the reference is to the father, and Ealinor or

Eleanor, who marries James Witherspoon. It is possible a similar indenture could have been processed in Rutherford County at this time.

There’s a marriage bond for a Fanney Black and Robert McCord, 1787, Lincoln County, N.C.

Yes, I added the reference to profile.

It looks like it’s a different Thomas Black family:

“This indenture gives the names of Fann(e)y's brothers and sister as William, John, possibly Thomas G. but I believe the reference is to the father, and Ealinor or Eleanor, who marries James Witherspoon.”

That mention of Eleanor Witherspoon brought in the rest of this different Black family, who was also in Lincoln NC it seems, as that’s where Fideles / Fanny Black was married.

Eliesha Steffanson Come take a look at your tree now.

If Esther Thompson is in fact a daughter of Elizabeth & Thomas Black, it is now very clear she was not of Native origin, as mtDNA has propagated with a marker of H1a, associated with English / Irish Ancestry.

From Eliesha Steffanson

“Thank you so much Erica, and everyone else on the team, for your responses to my inquiry! Thank you for fixing the family tree. I was pretty sure she was not Cherokee, but wondered if you knew something I didn't. I knew that the Mccord's were Scots-Irish and figured the Black's probably were too or English. Thank you for clearing that up.”

Eliesha, I apologize for my rather tardy response. I have been having some issues with my IPO. I do think now it is fixed. None the less it appears as though your little quandary. worked itself out. You got a lot of information on your response. I do indeed have a Cox Line. I will be glad to answer anything you need just give me a yell. Rev. Billy Joe Gross

Part of what’s interesting & useful is it turns out that Eleisha’s Black family is entirely different.

Thomas G. Black Was the father of Fanny McCord & there’s no reference (so far) to his wife’s name at all.

I don't know if i can help your on the Black name by much, as i am still looking for my family that married American Indians many married white me mostly fur traders. I have a few books written by many authors Don Shadburn who wrote many history books and was from GA and also Part American Indian himself. The one book i have that might help you is called WHITES AMONG THE CHEROKEE GA history 1828-1838 on page 148 information on a William Black, and on page 37, 152, 153 about a John Black. during this time many Cherokee women married white men, my great grandfather 3rd generation back was Alexander Kell and he married Emily Amy Duncan who classifed herself as full Cherokee however eventhough the indian nation adopted Young Charles Gordon Duncan into the nation and adopted him he is was a white man so really Emily Amy was about 1/2 american Indian since her mother Dorcas Lightfoot Benge Duncan had a mother who was Cherokee but married John Lightfoot a white man so Dorcan is the sister of Nancy Lightfoot Foster Adair and had children one named Black watt, So if you get this book possibility at a library..To give you what this book has is that John Black had a wife and 3 children with cherokee papers page 238, 255-60 Georgia Archives personals allowed to remain in the Cherokee Nation, having taken the oath prescribed by law was permitted to continue their residence in a that part of the state at present occupied by the Cherokee Indians, many were named but for Black John Black wife and three children his trade Miller. there are also living close by a few McClures. more too this book so suggest you look into it. also on page 148 living in Habersham GA head of family William Black 2 William Black SR 5 they were in the free white population in the 822nd district G.M. Cass County...In the Book by deceased writter Don Sadburn, Upon his Ruins it mentions a man named black who help Doublehead to escape his murder for a time, but it mentions no first name on that he was a Teacher, but on the black name it mentions Mary Black and a Mary Polly Black, you should be able to find these books at your library.. Don't give up your search, hopefully you will find your ancestor the Blacks...

These books are great references, but the family in question did not live in the Cherokee Nation or in Georgia, they were from Greene County, Tennessee and had no Cherokee connection. If you use the book “Upon Our Ruins” as a source, be sure to verify the references. Not are are actual documents, some just cite Internet posts or email messages. Most of the book is relaible, just always double-check.

I am not a blood-relative but find the discussion interesting.

My mtDNA haplogroup is H2a1, but I'm also a Cherokee descendant on that line, as my 4th great-grandfather who married the H2a1 4th great-grandmother was Cherokee. So the DNA has come down to me as H2a1 / Cherokee. So Elizabeth couldn't have been full-blood, but she could definitely have been part Native American, whether it was actually Cherokee or some other group that the family has misidentified as Cherokee. Until this year, my family thought my matternal great-great grandmother must have been Choctaw because we were in Mississippi. Turned out she was from that H2a1 / Cherokee line, no Choctaw in the mix at all. They had been part of a Cherokee migration to Alabama and some ended up in Mississippi as well as others continuing on to Texas. So, people do 'assume' incorrectly sometimes.

Also, the Melunngeons in any part of Tennessee quite often claim Cherokee ancestry. I don't recall any other Native American group being cited among their ancestry repeatedly. Cherokee fled to those Appalachian mountains at various times as white settlers encrouched more and more into their homelands. So it's quite possible for a family from Tennessee to have farther back Cherokee ancestry..

I read once and have found it to be true in my own research that most families don't just make these traditions up and that they should be paid attention to, especially if the same tradition is passed down in several branches of the same family. That is not a coincidence and a huge clue.