Marie Madeleine Marais Niel, b4 SM - Inconsistencies

Help!

There appears to be two "Marie Madeleine Niel"? This one seems to be only the parents of the "Niel" children. The other Marie seems to be the mother of the Boeiens and Taillefer children. Have to find any other supporting documentation re this matter.

https://www.myheritage.com/research/record-1-177721011-3-660/maria-...

In the "About" section of Marie Madeleine Niel (Marais) someone else has already found that these two people cannot be the same. I have copied and pasted their findings with support:

NOTE: added by Demornay du Toit, 3 February 2009 on http://www.stamouers.com/marais.htm
The entry above for Charles Marais includes the following:
4. Maria (Marie-Madeleine)* 1682 x 1700 Estienne Nel xx Pierre Taillefert xxx Pieter Boeiens (Booysen)
This is not correct. The 1713 muster rolls (Drakenstein) in the eGSSA transcription includes both
1. Steven Niel & Maria Madalena Marai
2. Pieter Talifer & Maria Marai
The same Maria Marais could not, therefore, not married to both Estienne (Steven) Niel and Pierre (Pieter) Taillefert at different times.
Marie-Madeleine, daughter of Charles Marais and Catherine Taboureaux, married Estienne Niel. Evidence of this is cited on the Ball Family History web site (under Maria Magdalena Marais) as follows:
Cape Archives, C416, Inkomende Brieven: Kamer Delft, Dec 19 1687, f.1013, in French Refugees at the Cape, C.G.Botha, Cape Town, Cape Times Ltd, 1919: Met dit schip' staen mede van hier te gaen de volgende persoonen, die om de vervolginge tegens de waere gereformeerde Religie in Vrankrijk bij ons sijn overgekomen, die nu volgens Resolutie van de vergaderingh der Heeren 17 en 't reglement aen de Caep moeten werden geplaetst en als vrije luijden tot den lantbouw en andere hantwercken gebruijkt, wij recommandeeren U : E : deselve in alles behulpsaem te wesen waer aen de Compc in 't particulier en de kercks godsdienst sal geschieden-namentlijk, Charles Marais uijt plessis in Vrankrijk, Catarina Taboureux sijn huijsvrouw, Claude Marais out 24 jaeren, Charles Marais 19 jaeren, Isaac Marais 10 laeren, Marie Marais 6 jaeren der selver kinderen
Will - Niel, Etienne and Maria Magdalena Marais - 1716, dated 13 May 1716 and filed 16 September 1716, Cape Archives, MOOC 7/1/2, 76: den vrijlandbouwer Etienne Niel oud agtenveertigh jaaren geboren in't Dauphine en Maria Magdalena Marais oud vier en dertigh jaaren geboren Hierpoix, beijde provinites van Vrankrijk, tesamen egte luijden woonende aan de Hoek van de Perdebergh, op haar plaats gent. Oranjge, den eersten compt. fris en gezond van lighaam, de tweede compt siekelijk ...
The two passages above place Marie's date of birth between 14 May 1681 and 19 Dec 1681 and, taken together, provide reasonable proof that it was the daughter of Charles Marais and Catherine Taboureaux who married Estienne Niel.
Maria Marais, daughter of Claude Marais and Marie Avice (niece of the above-mentioned Marie-Madeleine Marais) married Pierre Taillefert. Evidence of this is found in the inventory of the estate of Suzanne Gardiol (widow of Abraham de Villiers and second wife of Claude Marais) where, under "Lasten den boedels", bequests to the children from Suzanne's first marriage are listed and, following that, bequests to the children from Claude's first marriage: aan Charle en Etiene Marais over t restand hunner moeders erfportie 534:--, aan Maria Marais wed: Talifer over haar geheele moeders erfportie 917:--
A transcription of Suzanne Gardiol's inventory can be found on the TANAP web site (MOOC 8/5.51). It is also quoted on the Ball Family History web site (see Maria Marais). The same Maria Marais subsequently married Pieter Boeiens (Booyens). Again from Ball Family History (under this marriage): Den 26 10ber: Pieter Booyens van Blokziel, weduwenaar, met Maria Marais wede. van wijlen Pieter talifer (Drakenstein Baptisms and marriages CD issued by the Drakensteinse Heemkring, Paarl)

That's very helpful, thank you. Now, the disentangling begins :-(

cf http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk/bosmandevriesbuys/I602.html##I606

cf Charles Marais, SV/PROG Catherine Marais, SM/PROG Estienne Niel, SV/PROG Pierre Taillefert Pierre Taillefert Pieter Boeiens, SV/PROG

Pieter Taillefer Elizabeth Geldenhuys
Susanna Taillefert, SM
Anna du Plessis (Booyens)

cf New profile for Maria Taillefert, Boelens daughter of Claude Marais, b1 and Marie Avice

x Pierre Taillefer d <1729
*Maria b.1714 *Susanna 1715 -<1721 *Pieter b.1717 *Elisabeth b.1718 *Susanna 1721 - <1766
xx 26 Dec 1734 Pieter Boijens
*Anna b.1735

Daar is bronne wat aangee dat sy in 1712 met Pieter Taillefer en in 1734 met Pieter Boeiens
getrou het. Die inligting is ooglopend foutief, byvoorbeeld met die opstel van hulle
gesamentlike testament [hulle was dus toe nog getroud] in 1716 was sy reeds ernstig siek.
Sy kon dus nie in 1712 met Taillefer getrou het nie en sy was reeds oorlede in 1734.
Die twee here was met Maria Marais dogter van Claude Marais en Marie Avice [b1] getroud.

Thank you, Stef. I think that's correct.

Sharon re birth dates please keep in mind that in many cases the baptism date is given and then the person could have been any age between 1 day and 18 years. I will therefor suggest that only documentation where both dates appear should be taken.
Re: Marie Madeleine( Maria Magdalena Marais) x to Estienne Nel I will look at all my own resources and sources on my PAF again and come back. I would not suggest any entangling unless all managers with sources are happy. We don't want to get in bad books again.

I think the issue is that she was dead! :-)

You're correct, she was already long dead and could not have married either of the other two gentlemen. I do notice that on the profile she is still married to Estienne, which is obviously now not correct. Is the disentangling still in process?

Lydia, I do not follow your thought process... the profile under discussion (first) - b4 - Marie-Madeleine Marais, b4 SM, was married to Nel (Niel).

There seems to have been another whom was b1c? - Maria Taillefert, Boelens, daughter of Claude b1 and Avice, whom married Taillefer and Booyens.

There is nothing to untangle regarding b4. :)

I was referring to Maria Marais who was still showing up as married to Estienne. It has since been corrected.

Lydia, Sharon and Jan This is what I have and also sourced in my Legacy tree Marais with other sources.
Estienne NEL, gebore 1669, van Dauphine was 'n Franse Hugenoot wat in 1693 in Suid-Afrika aangekom het. Hy was eers 'n kompanjie soldaat en later 'n landbouer in Drakenstein. Hy trou in 1700 met Marie-Madeleine (Maria Magdalena) MARAIS. Hy het die volgende plase besit la Dauphine, Franschhoek sedert 1694, Keerweder, Franschhoek sedert 1701; enOrange, Paarl en Bossjesmansfontein, Groot Paardeberg sedert 1714, en Klipfontein buite Malmesbury sedert 1720. Estienne Nel is in 1738 oorlede, en sy enigste seun wat getroud is het, het egter net dogters gehad.
KINDERS
1. Marie Madeleine ~ 21 Jul 1703 x 5 Maart 1719 Francois Louis Migault van Emden
2. Anna ~ 1704 x Andries Grove
3. Etienne ~ 8 Feb 1705
4. Rachel ~ 10 Jul 1707 x Paul Jourdan
5. Jean ~ 8 Nov 1711 burger Stellenbosch x 21 Okt 1731 Sara Coetsee
Charles MARAIS van Plessis Marle, suid van Parys, het as Franse Hugenoot in 1688 op die Voorschooten aangekom met sy vrou Catherine TABOUREUX en 4 kinders, sy sterwe 1729. Hy vlug met sy gesin na Nederland, waar hulle op 14 Sep 1687 die Katolieke geloof in die Waalse Kerk in Den Haag afsweer.
Hy het 3 seuns en een dogter gehad, almal in Europa gebore.
KINDERS:
b1. Claude * 1662, x 1690 Maria Avice xx 13 Okt 1721 Susanne Gardiol van "la Coste" in Provence, weduwee van Abraham de Villiers. Hy was een van die eerste ouderlinge van die Franse gemeente. Toe sy tweede vrou in 1729 oorlede is, het hy die plase Meerlust, Lekkerwyn, le Plessis Marle en Welvanpas (waar Piet Retief gebore is) besit.
b2. Charles * 1668 x 1692 Anna de Ruelle van Guisnes d/v Daniel, boer De Fontein, Wamakersvallei + 16 May 1711
b3. Izaac * 1677
b4. Maria (Marie-Madeleine)* 1682 x 1700 Estienne Nel xx Pierre Taillefert xxx Pieter Boeiens (Booysen)
Will - Niel, Etienne and Maria Magdalena Marais - 1716, dated 13 May 1716 and filed 16 September 1716, Cape Archives, MOOC 7/1/2, 76: den vrijlandbouwer Etienne Niel oud agtenveertigh jaaren geboren in't Dauphine en Maria Magdalena Marais oud vier en dertigh jaaren geboren Hierpoix, beijde provinites van Vrankrijk, tesamen egte luijden woonende aan de Hoek van de Perdebergh, op haar plaats gent. Oranjge, den eersten compt. fris en gezond van lighaam, de tweede compt siekelijk ...
The two passages above place Marie's date of birth between 14 May 1681 and 19 Dec 1681 and, taken together, provide reasonable proof that it was the daughter of Charles Marais and Catherine Taboureaux who married Estienne Niel.
Maria Marais, daughter of Claude Marais and Marie Avice (niece of the above-mentioned Marie-Madeleine Marais) married Pierre Taillefert. Evidence of this is found in the inventory of the estate of Suzanne Gardiol (widow of Abraham de Villiers and second wife of Claude Marais) where, under "Lasten den boedels", bequests to the children from Suzanne's first marriage are listed and, following that, bequests to the children from Claude's first marriage: aan Charle en Etiene Marais over t restand hunner moeders erfportie 534:--,
aan Maria Marais wed: Talifer over haar geheele moeders erfportie 917:--

Sharon Doubell Marie Madeleine as then for sure married 3 times and must be connected to her two otherhusbands again.

That complete tree is now incorrect and a lot of families are suddenly affected.

Judi

And more
TAILLEFERT
Isaacq TAILLEFERT

Soo sijn eerstelijck de electien als ouderlingh in de gemeente alhier aan Cabo de Goede Hoop door den E.Kerckenraade op de vrijeluijden Adriaan van Braakel als van gelijcken mede in de Fransse-gemeente aan Drakensteijn op Isaacq Taillefert gedaan, bij ons g’approbeert.

Pierre, ook Pieter taillefert genoem, was afkomstig van Chateau Thierry in die provinsie van Brie en het in 1688 met sy ouers op die Oosterlandt na die Kaap gekom. Hy was getroud met Maria Marais, weduwee van Estienne Niel en het drie dogters gehad. Hy is in Maart 1726 oorlede.

Marie-Madeleine Marais, b4 SM was dead by 1716. It doesn't matter when she was born as far as the question of the two more husbands goes.

But you're saying so yourself: Maria Marais, daughter of Claude Marais and Marie Avice (niece of the above-mentioned Marie-Madeleine Marais) married Pierre Taillefert. Evidence of this is found in the inventory of the estate of Suzanne Gardiol (widow of Abraham de Villiers and second wife of Claude Marais)

What source are you quoting here: "Pieter taillefert genoem, was afkomstig van Chateau Thierry in die provinsie van Brie en het in 1688 met sy ouers op die Oosterlandt na die Kaap gekom. Hy was getroud met Maria Marais, weduwee van Estienne Niel en het drie dogters gehad."?

Sharon Doubell this spesific piece I took from Stamouers on the web. eGGSA.

There are other sources that I don't have on the web but my own research and also other private researchers.

I will just finish of the genesis in the next week and sen e-mail to you with what I have on my Legacy tree. It was all here as well.☺

Have a wonderful weekend.

So, no primary sources?

Would the following be of any help to prove the relationship between @Maria Marais and @Pierre Taillefert in 1718 since somebody mentioned that the former possibly had died by about 1716.
Their daughter @Elizabeth, as included in the profile above, was christened at Drakenstein on 11 Dec 1718, as mentioned in the following reference, which included the names of her parents (granted, of course, that one can not deduce from this which Maria Marais is refered to):

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-W944-F?i=353

getuygen: Pieter de Villiers en Maria de Villiers

Just my daalder in the pauper's burse, or something to that effect :-)

This Maria Taillefert, Boelens?

Maria Marais d 1 May 1766
Par: Claude Marais b c1663 & Maria Aviese d1696
x Pierre Taillefer d <1729
*Maria b.1714 *Susanna 1715 -<1721 *Pieter b.1717 *Elizabeth Geldenhuys b.1718 *Susanna 1721 - <1766
xx 26 Dec 1734 Pieter Boijens
*Anna b.1735

I agree, Sharon, and in line with Judi's explanation of the family concerned.

:-)

Agree julle