Nissell Schick (Heller Segal) - Shmuel and Nissel Schick

Started by Randy Schoenberg on Monday, July 8, 2019
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Private User
2/5/2020 at 5:47 PM

The way I understand the Hebrew, Wolf Slawis is YOM TOV LIPMAN HELLER'S SON-IN-LAW. (וחתני)
His name is mentioned as providing part of the second half of the guarantee for money YTLH needs to pay. The other person who guaranteed the second half is: THE OFFICER RABBI HENA who went with YOMTOV to Vienna, and is mentioned before [so is written].
The first half was paid by other people. one of them: R. Hanokh Shiff. the father of my wife (מחותני), my loving friend [etc.] gave 100 R"T.

Private User
2/5/2020 at 6:43 PM

I found another version of MEGILAT EIVA which is mostly written in today's hebrew letters, and part of which is written in RASHI letters:
https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3840&st=&pgnum=9
on page 9 is mentioned Wolf Slawis as Yom-Tov's son in law.
and on page לח 39 the daughters of YOM TOV are mentioned. Nissel if mentioned as the wife of Rabbi Zeev Slaves.
.זאב סלאוועס
Obviously the same person.
https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3840&st=&pgnu...

The book:
https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3840&st=&pgnu...=

Private User
2/6/2020 at 10:15 AM

I am responding to the RavSig post and making a comment based solely on the posts in this discussion. In particular, Mr Putik of Prague says that Nissel bca 1606 died in 1639 of the plague and that her spouse Wolf ben David certainly remarried, which makes sense since he went on to live until 1671. Randy says he believes Nissel is the second wife of Wolf Slawes Spira which seems difficult since he died in 1630. So if all the years are accurate (and since they probably come from gravemarkers they are presumed to be accurate), then Wolf Slawes would have died BEFORE Nissel and thus could not have remarried after her young death. Instead it would seem that Wolf ben David and Wolf Slawes are two different persons roughly one generation apart. The problem of the mention of Slawe in the YTLH auto-bio. Could it be that Slawe is a reference to Wolf ben David's mother being Slava and that then subsequent authors kept using the name as written by YTLH. How do we know that the Wolf Slawe's name includes a Slawe (could he not be simply Benjamin Wolf Spira? Could that Slawe added to his name be a GENI mistake? How and when did the Slawe get added to Benjamin Wolf?

Private User
2/6/2020 at 4:42 PM

The book MEGILAT EIVA was written by 2 people:

Yom Tov Lipman Heller - till middle of page 18 יז
https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3840&st=&pgnu...

continuation from middle of page 18 יז was written by YTLH son SHMUEL who also published the whole book.
It has 2 parts: first the story of what happened to YTLH and the names of his enemies, who caused the jail and money punishment. Second the biography and history of YTLH. from page 34 לג. at least till page 44.
https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3840&st=&pgnu...

The text of YTLH is found on page 36 לה.
https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3840&st=&pgnu...

To me it seems that all the 45 pages of the book MEGILAT EIV"A were written in Hebrew,
איב"ה = איכה ישבה בדד העיר.

The German translation contains mistakes, at least in the genealogy.

Private User
2/6/2020 at 4:45 PM

correction:

The text of YTLH grave stone is found on page 36 לה.
https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3840&st=&pgnu...

2/6/2020 at 6:08 PM

Private User, the version you found is considered a forgery by an author claiming to be Shmuel the son of YTLH. See Kaufmann, Letzte Vertreibung, page 20, fn. 2.

Private User, I am convinced there are two Wolfs. Wolf Slawes = Wolf b. Jechiel Dayan (Spira) whose wife is Chava Slawes, as confirmed by Landau/Wachstein in Privatbriefe. The husband of Nissel is Wolf b. David Flekeles Horowitz.

So far I have seen no confirmation of the claim that the Wolf-Nissel family used Slawes. I am waiting to see two more of the grave inscriptions, but so far one of the three listed in Hock/Kaufmann Die Familien Prags (Nissel b. TFYT) does not appear to have the name Slawes. See Nissel Flekeles Horowitz (d.#5 Tosfot Yom Tov)

Private User
2/6/2020 at 6:54 PM

Randy,
So, one author in 2018 considers an older book a forgery. Why do you think he is right?

However, the book translated to German, has the same text. The translation was wrong, and shows lack of understanding of at least one sentence, relating to genealogy.

2/7/2020 at 1:43 AM

Kaufmann was writing in 1889, citing also Simon Hock, who died in 1887. I fear that there are many different versions and none of them are very reliable. The main issue for me is that they obviously confused Wolf Slawes, who was mentioned in the memoir, but is not a Levy, and who was only married to Chava, who died after him, and not Nissel, with Nissel's husband Wolf Flekeles-Horowitz. It's an understandable mistake for people to make 200 years after the original story was written, which is when some of the various versions began to be published.

Private User
2/7/2020 at 9:31 AM

Thanks Randy,

I take it that the first part till mid page 18 יז of MEGILAT EIVA was written by YTLH.

What is written there, is that daughter Nissel was married to son-in-law Wolf Salawis Segal וואלף סאלאוויס סג"ל. [additional information about his next marriage there as well], [daughter Nissel is dead by the time of writing Megilat Eiva. זללה"ה].

https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3840&st=&pgnu...

I feel that GENI profile of daughter Nissel should include her husband's name.
The rest of the names seems like speculation.

Not to forget that there was also a grand-daughter Nissel, who was born to another (deceased ז"ל) daughter of YTLH called Mrs. Dabrish. This Nissel has a sister called Reisel. See here:
https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3840&st=&pgnu...

Thanks in advance,

Bella

2/7/2020 at 9:50 AM

Again, that reference to "Wolf Slawis Segal" in that forged and embellished version of Megilat Eiva is almost certainly wrong and probably was added by the editor/forger. Because Wolf Slawes, whom we know from the private letters from 1619 that were found in an archive and published by Landau and Wachstein in 1912, was not a Levite, and was married only to Chava, who was his wife in 1619, and dies as a widow after Wolf died in 1630. So he is not married to Nissel. Nissel's husband, which we know from the grave inscriptions in the Prague old cemetery for some of their descendants, is Wolf Flekeles Horowitz SeGal. The confusion is because Wolf Slawes is mentioned in the memoirs as someone who supported YTLH and paid to get him out of jail. But it isn't the same Wolf as the one who married Nissel. It's an old mistake that keeps getting repeated over and over again.

P.S. Can you tell me what it says about Wolf's next marriage? Because that also fits well with Wolf Flekeles-Horowitz, who dies in 1671, many years after Nissel dies in the Plague in 1639. But I haven't figured out who the second wife is.

P.P.S. it is interesting that Kaufmann calls out the forgery, but that he (or Simon Hock) also made the mistake about Wolf Slawes when he published the book of grave inscriptions by Hock. Apparently that part he wrongly believed was correct.

2/7/2020 at 10:23 AM

You can read about the publication history of Megillat Eiva at

https://books.google.com/books?id=6XC2AgAAQBAJ&pg=PA230&lpg...

Also see Guido Kisch's 1929 article at https://photos.geni.com/p13/cb/3d/19/6f/534448524be0bfdd/die_megill...

Private User
2/7/2020 at 10:57 AM

in re Randy's post of 'de familie frankel': I don't see any mention of the name Slawes associated with Binymain Vulf Spira in this document. Interestingly, it seems he may have had daughter named Slava, if I'm reading it correctly (p17, fn28). This would mean that he could have been known as 'Slawe's', meaning her father.

Private User
2/7/2020 at 11:01 AM

Randy,
Thanks.
I can look at "your" German text, but it is not as easy to read. (soon).
There can be 2 people by the name of Wolf Slawes. Especially since the Hebrew way of writing the name can be read as: SLAWEISS and next time as SALAWISS. The name Slawes seems to be wrong.
However, Mr. S. is mentioned a few times in the earlier text. On page 9 for example:
"son-in-law Wolf Slawis who also travelled with me from Prague to Vienna."
https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3840&st=&pgnum=9

As to Rabbi Salaweis Segal second wife:
https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3840&st=&pgnu...
1) no first name. She was her husband's age. Not married before. She was the daughter of:
2) Rabbi Moshe. Ab"d of Chelem (חעלים) [Chelm in Polish]. Son of:
3) Rabbi Meir. Ab"d Brisk [Brest litovsk]. Son of:
4) Rabbi Shaul Wahl ז"ל.

With Rabbi Salaweis YTLH travelled on 11 of the month of Av to Chelm.

I agree with you that the Memoir text might have been edited, especially I think, about people who died by the time it was printed and get the addition of ז"ל and זלל"הה. YTLH refers to his text as a letter איגרת.

The religious offsprings of YTLH, do not consider Megilat Eiva as a forgery, and keep the dates YTLH requested - one for fasting, and one for rejoicing - till today.

Private User
2/7/2020 at 11:20 AM

Randy,
your German version, page 24: Hebrew page:
Son-in law R. Wolf Slavers.
ר' וואלף סלאברס.

2/7/2020 at 12:03 PM

I did not say the entire work was forged, but that other experts said the one version published in 1880 in Warsaw, claiming to be by a son of TSFT, was partly forged/edited.

You can read more about the various versions at

https://photos.geni.com/p13/58/6f/1f/f2/534448525390532b/img_4111_o...

https://photos.geni.com/p13/c4/44/b8/35/53444852538add1c/screen_sho...

There is apparently some disagreement over whether he wrote it initially in Judeo-deutsch or Hebrew. My vote is for Judeo-deutsch since that is also the language he used to write to his family, as evidenced by the letter published in Privatbriefe. And this story was meant to be read by his family.

2/7/2020 at 12:08 PM

Private User, look at the Hebrew, first line on top of page 347 of Neue Beiträge. It says וואלף סלאוויש = Wolf Slawis.

https://photos.geni.com/p13/00/f9/35/99/534448520eba1e2f/neue_beitr...

Private User
2/7/2020 at 12:14 PM

More about your German version, that seems to me to clear something up page 40:
https://www.geni.com/documents/view/341256714600012811?doc_id=60000...
Hebrew page, about the wedding of grandson [Natan], named after YTLH father Natan.
In brackets the following is written:
(He is the son of my ... daughter NISSEL זלה"ת who was married to my son-in-law Wolf SLAIVIS SEGAL )
[now continued]:
[Natan] who married his age virgin HANALE [or KHanale] daughter of:
1. Moshe Ab"d Chelm [העלם]. son of:
2. Meir Ab"d Brisk de'Lita. Son of:
3. Shaul Wahll.
With whom I went to Chelm. [the grandson?]

As you can see from here, the "forged" other Hebrew version, is not about the second marriage of Wolf Slavis - but about the grandson.

Very interesting, but at least the person who edited the Hebrew version of these pages, had the decency to put some information in brackets.

2/7/2020 at 12:15 PM

And yes, Wolf Spira's descendants did use the name Slawa.

Slawa Neustädtl (Nasch)
Schlawa Bunzel

2/7/2020 at 12:21 PM

Private User, yes, I think now you are also seeing the confusion between all of these "sources." What I haven't seen yet is the study of the different yiddish sources that was published by Max Erik. What I'd be interested in is isolating what each of the various versions says about Wolf Slawes and Nissel's husband, to see if all of them have the confusion from the very earliest versions, or if it started with one of them and was just copied over.

2/7/2020 at 12:26 PM
Private User
2/7/2020 at 12:26 PM

Randy Schoenberg Since there is a documented reference giving the name Slavish, I don't think it would hurt to include that name in Binyamin b Yekhiel Mikhel's profile. It seems that some authorities thought Slavish was part of the name and others did not. Better to err on the side of over- rather than under-inclusion if you ask me.....

2/7/2020 at 12:27 PM
2/7/2020 at 12:57 PM

Here it is now extracted. Any Yiddishists want to try to see what it says about Wolf and Yom Tov Lippman Heller - "Tosfot Yom Tov"?

https://photos.geni.com/p13/a8/3a/ef/6a/5344485253b6a8aa/megillat_e...

Private User
2/7/2020 at 3:53 PM

Randy, The following link brings a recent version 2018 of MEGILAT EIVA.
It is based on many compared different versions of this publications.
https://tablet.otzar.org/he/book/book.php?book=64369&width=0&am...

page 24:
https://tablet.otzar.org/he/book/book.php?book=64369&width=0&am...
translation: my son-in-law R. Wolf (Slavis) [Sega"l] that he too travelled with me from Prague to Vienna.

page 34:
[and he is the son of my humble and glorious Nissel זלה"ה that was married to my sun-in-law the champion האלוף our Rabbi the teacher מו"ה Walf Slawis Sega"l],
https://tablet.otzar.org/he/book/book.php?book=64369&width=0&am...

I think this ends my search.

Bella

Private User
2/7/2020 at 3:59 PM

correction page 34:
daughter Nissel

2/7/2020 at 9:26 PM

It's perfectly understandable that this mistake keeps getting repeated over and over and over again. But it is still a mistake, almost certainly. I am still waiting to get the inscriptions on two graves. If those don't say Slawes, the case is closed.

Private User
2/9/2020 at 1:55 AM

Randy Schoenberg
The Yiddish text you linked to is not a translation of Megilat Eiva, rather it is a discussion of various versions and their authenticity.
I didn't (yet) go through the entire text, but the jest of it from what I have seen so far is:
1. the earliest print is from 1836, printed by Moshe Kerner in Bresloy, in Hebrew with a German translation.
2. A handwritten Yiddish version exists in Oxford Library (Ms. opp. 711/1703 ol.) which is not older than the 18th Century.
3. The Oxford manuscript is clearly a copy of an older manuscript of the 17th Century
4. The story in the Yiddish manuscript and in the Hebrew printed version are basically identical.
5. The Yiddish version has more details. Details which could only have been known to someone very familiar with all the historic, linguistic, politic and geographic details of the time.
6. It is very likely that the TY himself has written a Yiddish version for the women of the family who didn't understand Hebrew.
7. The Hebrew version seams to be written before the Yiddish one.

Private User
2/9/2020 at 1:56 AM

a search of the pdf file didn't bring up any hit for Wolf and/or slawis

Private User
2/9/2020 at 2:04 AM

Just realized that the PDF has not been OCR-ed, so obviously a text-search is useless.

2/9/2020 at 10:44 AM

The transcription by Muneles of the grave of Juda b. Manes d. 1700 does mention Slawes, which I am still convinced is an error.

On Yom Kippur 1700 (23 Sept 1700) died habachur Juda bn Manes seGal, grandson of hajashish mvhr”r Wolf Slawes [mistake?] Horwitz seGal z”l.

https://www.geni.com/photo/view?album_type=photos_of_me&id=6000...

His father Manes died 1707 and his grave says

On Shabbat, 18 Adar 1 1707: parnas and gowe (I think that is what PvG is) the honored, the pious, modest and upright Manes son of the honored mv”h Juda seGal z”l Horwitz Flekeles.

https://www.geni.com/photo/view?album_type=photos_of_me&id=6000...

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