Elizabeth Johanna Lubbe (van Rooyen) - Lets solve this for now

cc (daughter of IM VAN ROOYEN x NEL)

Johanna Elizabeth Nel

Hi,

Not trying to make it more complicated, but could there have been an Elizabeth Johanna married to Olivier and Lubbe and an older sister Johanna Elizabeth (born 1870, baptised 1871) married to Nel deceased before 1899?

Baptism entry for Johanna Elizabeth
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9QG-RC11?i=35&amp...

Here is Johanna Elizabeth's marriage to Nel
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C91V-YWLT-6?mode=g...

Death notice - she was only 16 when she died in 1877 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS92-87P2-W?i=1041...

Unfortunately all the records found relates to Johanna Elizabeth daughter of Ignatius Michiel van Rooyen and Elizabeth Johanna Bezuidenhout but not the Elizabeth Johanna you are trying to resolve.

Thanks for all the work, Jan. Aubrey Strydom and Magrieta Magdalena Maria Britz -what do you think? Wrong parents here?

Thanks Elmien!!
>Here is Johanna Elizabeth's marriage to Nel
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C91V-YWLT-6?mode=g...

I'm squinting to see parents / witnesses here:
Conelis? van Rooyen
?

>Death notice - she was only 16 when she died in 1877 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS92-87P2-W?i=1041...

Johanna Elizabeth Van Rooijen Nel Probate 1887 Lydenburg, Transvaal, South Africa 16 1871 Lienbergsvallei Oranje Vrystaat 8 Mar 1887 Comati District Lydenburg

Parent Engenaas Michal Van Rooijen
Parent Elizabeth Johanna Bezuidenhoud Van Rooijen
Spouse Gert Stevanes Nel
Child Willem Johannes

So, I'm going to add this Johanna Elizabeth Van Rooijen Nel died1887
to the parents: Ignatius Michiel van Rooyen and Elizabeth Johanna Bezuidenhout ...

Johanna Elizabeth Nel - Private User, I see you just created her. Are the names the wrong way around?

I've changed them around and added and cited the documents that Elmien found. Also added dates - but the birthdate you have: 23 August 1874 can't be correct?
Given marriage 17 Jan 1877 and Death 08 August 1887 (which would make her 12)
You haven't got docs added for me to check why you chose that birthdate for the Elizabeth Johanna van Rooyen Nel you added. Could two sisters have married Nel?

Ahh - I found her husband Gert Stefanus Nel & her already entered by Leon Johan Pierre van Aswegen, a1b1c5d2e5f7g5h3 - who didn't have parents for her. Merging them.

Hi, I think it could really be two sisters, the older one named after her paternal grandmother Johanna Elizabeth van Rooyen and a younger Elizabeth Johanna named after her mother Elizabeth Johanna Bezuidenhout. The missing record is EJ's baptism to confirm all of this. However, note the witnesses (Elizabeth Johanna van Rooyen and Ignatius Michael van Rooyen) at the baptism of Elizabeth Johanna Van Rooyen/Olivier/Lubbe's daughter Elizabeth Johanna
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99GM-X67S?cc=1910846

I think it is safe to cut the parents of the VAN ROOYEN x OLIVIER and xx LUBBE - i.e. the profile linked first in this discussion.

Agree, it cannot be the correct DN age entirely wrong, as well as we know that the specific one marrying NEL was still alive in 1899 :)

We are perhaps looking for yet another Elizabeth Johanna - well this one called Johanna Elizabeth. :)

I did not mess up the names Sharon Doubell it is Elizabeth Johanna. I am not sure about the date, but someone did enter it on this child so I kept it. It is a guide.

I have it:

1. Elizabeth Johanna born 1873 - 1958 - not sure who parents are

2. Elizabeth Johanna born 8.1874 with MI V ROOYN and EJ as parents, marrying NEL.

3. Johanna Elizabeth born way earlier. Also marrying NEL. Could have been a sister (of number 2), died 1887, so not on her father's DN.

Suggest we recreate 2 and 3 separately as they have now been mangled together, and continue to search for 1.

>The missing record is EJ's baptism to confirm all of this.
Remind me why we think she exists at all. (I think I'm behind you both here :-))

You created EJ today under these parents. What evidence of her existence at all?
>1. Elizabeth Johanna born 1873 - 1958 - not sure who parents are

x-posted slightly, to Elmiens message. https://www.geni.com/discussions/204970?msg=1348340 came in whilst typing.

Interesting, offering 2 suggestions (using alphabet not to confuse with numbers in the post just above this one, which I will use below again):

a. Witnesses were not her (number 1's) parents. Could have been uncle and aunt, or brother+wife. Pity the birth surname of Ignatius M wife is not given, that would really be helpful.

b. It was number 2, who first married Olivier then NEL:)

I guess these seem unlikely... so have a better one, perhaps from the discussion, perhaps Michiel's DN is in fact wrong. Confused the EJ and the JE, it happens.

It was JE whom married NEL, en EJ whom was married to OLIVIER. Accidentally EJ got on his DN as a NEL instead of an OLIVIER. That suddenly makes the most sense, give or take, i.e. 1=2.

x-post Sharon Doubell - not sure I follow your https://www.geni.com/discussions/204970?msg=1348345

I created number 2, not number 1.

If your question is about number 1, then you will see the marriage record and DN confirming her as 1873 to 1958 - it is sourced.

I created number 2 (which I think you meant) based on her as a NEL on her father's DN. However her DOB of 8.1874 there is no source of that. Created to keep them separate for the time being but see the post by me just before this one...

So: Johanna Elizabeth Nel
Johanna Elizabeth van Rooyen (March 1871 - 08 August 1887:16 yrs 5 mnths)
Daughter of Ignatius Michiel van Rooyen and Elizabeth Johanna Bezuidenhout
x 17 Jan 1887 Gert Stefanus Nel
Mother of Willem Johannes (Willie) Nel

Turning to: Elizabeth Johanna Olivier Lubbe
Presently: Elizabeth Johanna van Rooyen Lubbe MP
Gender: Female
Birth: 1873
Bethlehem, Thabo Mofutsanyane, FS, South Africa
Death: 28 June 1958 (84-85)
Boksburg, East Rand, GP, South Africa
Immediate Family:
Daughter of Ignatius Michiel van Rooyen and Elizabeth Johanna Bezuidenhout
Wife of Gerhardus Cornelis Olivier and Rudolph Gideon Lubbe

Am I correct that we have no evidence of Elizabeth Johanna van Rooyen Olivier Lubbe's parents at all?
cfElizabeth Johanna Olivier Lubbe

The DOB of JE (no 3) is 1.10.1870. Here is her baptism no 113

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9QG-RC11?i=35&amp...

(specifically, she could not have been born 1 March 1871 to this set of parents. This makes her age at death more reasonable.

My previous message is that 1=2, and whilst 2 has become 3 by the name changes, no changes needed until we can confirm 1=2, just need that baptism as it seems clear it was in Bethlehem.

DN of Elizabeth Johanna Lubbe (Formerly Olivier, born Van Rooyen) (widow)
Born Bethlehem, OFS, SA
Parents deceased
Age 84yrs 10 mnths
5 3rd Ave Northmead Benoni

Spouses: Roedolf Gideon Lubbe d 1945
Gerhardus Cornelius Olivier d 1905

D 28 June 1958 Benoni-Boksburg Hospital

Children of marriage to Olivier
Jacomina Maria Van den Berg
Ignatius Michael Olivier (Major)
Elizabeth Johanna Engelbrecht (deceased)

Children of marriage to Lubbe
Martha Elizabeth Pretorius

Signed I M Olivier son of deceased (present at death)

Sharon and Jan I actually think they are both in the father's IM van Rooyen's death notice, it mentions a Elizabeth Johanna (the 3rd entry under children) and down at the bottom it mention wyle Johanna Elizabeth and her child with Nel.

For Elizabeth Johanna there is a marriage record with Olivier, numerous baptisms records for their children (and from their children's names and the various witnesses, she clearly fits into this family) and then her DN which indicated a 2nd marriage to a Lubbe.

I will leave it with you and Jan to decide but certainly think two sisters

Agree Elmien. 2 sisters so as is on Geni correct. Would still like the baptism for final clarity.

Help me - Why could Johanna Elizabeth Nel "not have been born 1 March 1871 to this set of parents"?

>The DOB of JE (no 3) is 1.10.1870. Here is her baptism no 113
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9QG-RC11?i=35&amp.........
(specifically, she could not have been born 1 March 1871 to this set of parents. This makes her age at death more reasonable.

Ahh yes - so proof of Elizabeth Johanna Olivier Lubbe and Johanna Elizabeth Nel's father in Ignatius Michiel van Rooyen's DN.

>Sharon and Jan I actually think they are both in the father's IM van Rooyen's death notice, it mentions a Elizabeth Johanna (the 3rd entry under children) and down at the bottom it mention wyle Johanna Elizabeth and her child with Nel.

DN of Ignatius Michael van Rooyen
Kaap Kolonie
Ouders - ?wylen Cornelius van Rooyen & Johanna Elizabeth van Rooyen
Oudedom 57 Jare
Landbouwer
Getrowd - nagelaaten Elizabeth Johanna Besuydenhout
Sterfdag 24 Oct 1899 op Commando naby Ladysmith

Kinderen: Susanna Catherina Johanna, Cornelius, Elizabeth Johanna, Gesina Johanna, (dezen allen mondig) Daniel Pieter, Petronella Hendrika Cornelia, en Ignatius Michael (dezen alles onmondig), ook onmondig kleinkind Willem Johannes Nel zoon van wylen Johanna Elizabeth gehuwd geweest met Gerhardus Stefanus Nel

[signed] EJ Bezuidenhout

Birth date for Elizabeth Johanna Olivier Lubbe using her age 22 on certificate of marriage to Olivier Dec 1895 = b 1873
Using DN aged 84 yrs 10 mnths on 28 June 1958 = b August 1873

So: Elizabeth Johanna Olivier Lubbe
Elizabeth Johanna van Rooyen (1873 - 1958)
do Ignatius Michiel v Rooyen & Elizabeth Johanna Bezuidenhout
x Gerhardus Cornelis Oliver
*Jacomina Vd Berg
*Ignatius
*Elizabeth Engelbrecht
x Rudolph Gideon Lubbe
*Martha Pretorius
mtDNA L3b

No evidence of this son on her DN: Gerhadus Cornelis Olivier b 24 June 1903
Aubrey Strydom - did he die very young? (Elizabeth Johanna Olivier Engelbrecht is shown as deceased on her mother's DN)