Urraca d'Ivrea - Urraca doesn't exist?

Hola a todos/as disculpen pero solo hablo Castellano/ Español uso el traductor de Google y me resulta practico en cualquier idioma, Livio Scremin el @ no funciona ,lo mejor es copiar dirección de enlace y pegar, respecto a la discusión e dejado de participar por los siguientes motivos : 1° no puedo identificar a George Louis Leonardus Maria Brouwers porque en Geni esta vacío de contenido y supuestamente es quien inicia el reclamo y comienza la discusión 2° no se ha terminado de discutir el tema y ya se eliminaron perfiles dándole razón a alguien que no tiene perfil en Geni y es solamente esto GEORGE BROUWERS
Agregado por: Ha iniciado el árbol genealógico el 26 de febrero de 2013
PD: https://www.geni.com/family-tree/canvas/6000000019592765097

Thank you very much, Livio and Juan.

George: je trouve means, "I find" (not "I think").

To say "I think" in French: "je pense." (not "je trouve").

Why do you misinterpret the referenced text, possibly causing others to believe false information?

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/french-english/trouve

https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=fr&...

Private User - Hice una pregunta sobre "árboles privados" en otro hilo de discusión porque había notado lo mismo. Según las respuestas que recibí de los curadores, algunos solo se unen a Geni para la investigación y tal vez tienen árboles en otros lugares. Lo entiendo, ya que tengo varios árboles por varias razones, pero si vas a participar en las discusiones, es bueno si tienes algo de realismo. Un árbol simple de tres o cuatro generaciones me demostraría un sentido de comunidad, pero ¿qué sé? Estoy tratando de enderezar el perfil de un primo que se unió y "se casó".

Aunque todavía puedo leer francés, ¡también uso el traductor de Google! Me encanta.

Private User Inicie el árbol en Geni en el año 2015, participó activamente casi todos los días, por razones de horarios mundiales no puedo estar en línea cuando se inician las discusiones más el tiempo que me lleva investigar, llego tarde y pierdo el hilo del debate, pero bueno sucede que en esta discusión recibí contestación de Livio y Debra únicamente la entiendo a Sharon por ser Curador y contar con todas las herramientas de Geni; pero insisto no me genera confianza alguien que se escuda en el anonimato cuando hablamos de falta de fuentes (debe verificar las fuentes de las relaciones que van con su perfil} dice Sharon y como sé que quien es mi interlocutor GEORGE no tiene fuentes y si las tiene quiero ver su árbol porque aun en perfiles Privados sus abuelos o bisabuelos son públicos.

Debra Denman and Livio Screman, the Google translation machine gives the word "think" when translating the French phrase "Je trouve que la femme nommeé Iunca fut file the Berengier". Reasons why I put "think" in brackets. I used the word "find" !!!!!
I don't want to mislead anyone. Is not my style.
However: I "find", both in Dutch and in French, is something completely different than I "know". The 1st is not certain and the 2nd is certain!
I worked with French people for 40 years and speak their language.

By the way: I started by stating that Urraca d’Ivrea did not exist and brought this on the advice of Sharron Lee Doubell.
You have practically ignored this comment and have moved to Iunca.
In wife of Gothelo “the Great”
the name Urraca d’Ivrea was changed to N.N. with leaving the date of birth and date of death and placing a JPG over Iunca.

My question is: Do you support my comment: Urraca d’Ivrea does not excist?

https://translate.google.com.ar/#view=home&op=translate&sl=...
Me parece que la mujer llamada Iunca era : Español
Je trouve que la femme nommeé Iunca fut: francés
I find that the woman named Iunca was: Ingles
Mi sembra che fosse la donna di nome Inca: italiano
Het lijkt mij dat de vrouw genaamd Iunca was : Neerlandés. Se trata de una lengua germánica la cual no solo es el idioma oficial de Holanda, sino que también está presente en una parte de Bélgica y en la pequeña región francesa de Westhoek.
Encontrar: Español Considerar o creer que una persona o cosa tiene determinada característica o que es o está de cierta manera.
Trouver: Francés Considérez ou croyez qu'une personne ou une chose a une certaine caractéristique ou qu'elle l'est ou l'est d'une certaine manière.
Find: Ingles Consider or believe that a person or thing has a certain characteristic or that it is or is in a certain way.
Trovare: Italiano Considera o credi che una persona o cosa abbia una certa caratteristica o che sia o sia in un certo modo.
vinden: Neerlandés Overweeg of geloof dat een persoon of ding een bepaald kenmerk heeft of dat het op een bepaalde manier is of is.

The important question is what proof Richard de Wassebourg (d 1567) gives for finding or thinking that Iunca was Gozelo's (d1044) wife - and why modern historians aren't taking his word for it.

Or to put it another way - Why, if we have accounts about this family from historians who were their contemporaries - eg Wipo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wipo_of_Burgundy), Bernald of Constance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernold_of_Constance), Herimannus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9riman_of_Tournai), is Uracca or Iunca not mentioned by them?
What sources does de Wassebourg, writing in the 15th and 16th Centuries, find that name her from 500 year ago? It isn't impossible that he did, but then why are no modern historians mentioning them, if that's the case?

If her name was known, would she not have been mentioned in The Chronicle of Hugh of Flavigny (c1085-1102) - "a local history of church reform in the dioceses most familiar to its author, Verdun" in connection with her son? (https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/christian-muslim-rel...)

Or another way - What is the likelihood that her name would not have been known and mentioned by historians from the time if she was the daughter of the King of Italy - as the mother of a Pope?

So, if an Archdeacon of Verdun - which Richard de Wassebourg was - thinks/ believes/ finds/ finds out 500 years later that a Pope in 1057 who came from Verdun was descended from the King of Italy through his mother Iunca - and this information exists nowhere historians can find in the histories we have from the time, it is reasonable to presume that she is spurious.

“Ser o no ser, esa es la cuestión” (en inglés, to be, or not to be, that is the question)

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maximum test » Urraca (± 965-± 1007)
Voorouders (en nakomelingen) van Urraca
Adalbert
880-923
Gisla del Friuli
± 876-> 913
Boson d'Arles
± 885-± 936
Willa
885-936
Berengar II of Ivrea
± 900-966
Willa
930-± 963
Urraca
± 965-± 1007
Gothelo the Great
± 967-1044
Regilinde
± 999-1064
Ada de Lorraine
± 990-1044
Godfrey
997-1069
Maud de Lorraine
± 990-????
Toon totale kwartierstaat

Gezin van Urraca
Zij had een relatie met Gothelo the Great
Kind(eren):
Regilinde ± 999-1064
Ada de Lorraine ± 990-1044
Godfrey 997-1069
Maud de Lorraine ± 990-????
Notities over Urraca
{geni:about_me} http://www.abitofhistory.net/html/rhw/body_files/u_body.htm
Urraca of Ivrea – (960 – c1007)
Princess of Italy
Urraca was the daughter of Berengar II of Ivrea, King of Italy and his wife Willa of Arles, the daughter of Boso of Arles, Marquis of Tuscany. Her parents were deposed and then imprisoned by the Emperor Otto I (962 – 973) but their children were brought up at the imperial court. Urraca and her sisters Gerberga and Rosala were raised in the household of the Empress Adelaide, the wife of Otto I.
The empress later arranged for Urraca to made a dynastic marriage (c990) with Gozelo I (Gonzelon) (c970 – 1044), Duke of Lower Lorraine and Margrave of Antwerp, a vassal of her grandson Otto III, who was ten years the junior of his bride. Urraca became the duchess consort of Lorraine (c990 – c1007) and was the mother of Godfrey II the Bearded (c997 – 1069) who succeeded his father as Duke of Lower-Lorraine (1044 – 1069) and left descendants. Her daughter Oda of Lorraine (c995 – 1044) became the wife of Lambert II (c990 – 1062), Count of Louvain (1015 – 1062) and left descendants.
--------------------
Urraca d'Ivrea, daughter of Berengar II d'Ivrea, King of Italy and Willa di Toscana.
http://www.thepeerage.com/p392.htm
http://mauriceboddy.org.uk/Lombardy.htm#HOUSE%20OF%20IVREA

Je suppose = I guess

Genealogieonlie is just a glorified family tree, and has been found to be spectacularly wrong in places. No references, no documentation (not even secondary).

Abitofhistory.net - also just a glorified family tree, no references, no documentation, no nothing.

thepeerage.com doesn't have her any more - just "unknown wife".

mauriceboddy.ord - see Abitofhistory.net.

We can take it as read that Gozelon I *did* have a wife, since he had children - but there are no surviving primary (or even near-contemporary secondary) records of who she was or what family she belonged to.

"Urraca" also stands out like a sore thumb in an Italo-Frankish context, since it is found almost exclusively in *Spain*.

Recent experience:
Tried several times to make contact with van Abitofhistoty.net "kathy@abitofhistory.net"
but there is no response.
If a member of genealogieonline does not respond, the organization does nothing about it.
Conclusion; does not come across as serious

Recent Experience:
I tried several times to contact the George Louis Leonardus Maria Brouwers tree
But there is no answer.
If a member of Geni does not respond, the organization does nothing about it.
Conclusion; it doesn't seem so serious

Please keep the discussion on topic.

George's observation about genealogieonline is accurate. That site provides a platform for individual users and if the individual becomes inactive there is nothing more. Geni as a collaborative site is very different. Further like most genealogical platform websites genealogieonline has absolutely no requirement for evidence so data on the site can be completely unsupported.

Alex Moes, thanks for your response this morning.
Furthermore: Juan Carlos comes in on 4/1/2020 at 11:51 in the afternoon with:
https://www.genealogieonline.nl/maximum-test/I6000000004998941157.php The owner is Ard van Bergen.
Why. Assume that Urraca (on this site without last name) is still listed here. One of the few sites that has not yet been adapted to reality. After all: Urraca d’Ivrea does not exist.

Had already approached Ard van Bergen 8/12/2019 19:25 with who his sources concerning Urraca (without surname) are on his site.
22:02 he answers: my publication on geology online is an export from Genie.

The problem of Juan Carlos, among others, is that he does not want to accept that a gap has been created in the lineage to Charlemagne. Too bad for a number of families.

Charlemagne

That's funny, I wasn't aware of it until you mentioned it.

Debra Denman, You know what i mean. Read: The problem of Juan Carlos, among others, is that he does not want to accept that a gap will arise in the lineage to Charlemagne containing Urraca d’Ivrea when it disappears there. Too bad for a number of families.

Why is it too bad for a lot of families? Is there some special privilege involved with being kin to Charlemagne?

How do you know what Juan is thinking?

No, George Brouwers, I do NOT know what you mean. You're not making sense.

Juan Carlos is Charlemagne's 36th great grandson.
Charlemagne
→ Hugo, Archchancellor of the Empire
his son → Petronelle de Gâtinais (D'auxerre)
his daughter → Ingelger, count of Anjou
her son → Fulk, count of Anjou
his son → Fulk II, Count of Anjou
his son → Adélaïde la Blanche d'Anjou, Reine consort d'Aquitaine
his daughter → Guillaume III le Pieux, comte de Provence
her son → Geoffroi I, comte de Provence
his son → Gerberge, comtesse de Provence
his daughter → Douce I de Gévaudan, comtesse de Provence
her daughter → Ramon Berenguer IV "the Saint" count of Barcelona
her son → Dulce de Aragão, rainha-consorte de Portugal
his daughter → Berengária af Portugal, Dronning af Danmark
her daughter → Christopher I, King of Denmark
her son → Eric V Klipping, King of Denmark
his son → Christopher II, King of Denmark
his son → Regitze Christoffersdatter Løvenbalk
his daughter → Gregers Pedersen Krognos, til Vidskøfle
her son → Holger Gregersen Krognos, til Vidskøfle & Heireholm
his son → Else Holgersdatter Krognos
his daughter → Margrethe Andersdatter Hvide
her daughter → Anders Jachimsen Bjørn, af Voergaard
her son → Maren Andersdatter Bjørn, af Voergaard
his daughter → Erik Jensen Grøn, til Voergaard
her son → Anders Eriksen Grøn, til Tamdrup Bisgaard
his son → Johanne Andersdatter Grøn
his daughter → Niels Frandsen Bruun
her son → Karen Nielsdatter Bruun
his daughter → Christian Jeppesen Bruun
her son → Kirstine Margrete Christiansdatter
his daughter → Karen Jensdatter
her daughter → Sophie Margrete Mathiasdatter
her daughter → Mathias Larsen
her son → Lars Mathiasen
his son → Ana Hilda Mathiasen
his daughter → Carmen Cristina Madsen
her daughter → Juan Iges Blom
her son → Juan Carlos
his son

Juan isn't at all affected in his kinship with Charlemagne (nor am I), so that's NOT the reason for disagreeing with you about Urraca.

Charlemagne is your 36th great grandfather.
You Juan Carlos Blom
→ Juan Iges Blom
your father → Carmen Cristina Madsen
his mother → Ana Hilda Mathiasen
her mother → Lars Mathiasen
her father → Mathias Larsen
his father → Sophie Margrete Mathiasdatter
his mother → Karen Jensdatter
her mother → Kirstine Margrete Christiansdatter
her mother → Christian Jeppesen Bruun
her father → Karen Nielsdatter Bruun
his mother → Niels Frandsen Bruun
her father → Johanne Andersdatter Grøn
his mother → Anders Eriksen Grøn, til Tamdrup Bisgaard
her father → Erik Jensen Grøn, til Voergaard
his father → Maren Andersdatter Bjørn, af Voergaard
his mother → Anders Jachimsen Bjørn, af Voergaard
her father → Margrethe Andersdatter Hvide
his mother → Else Holgersdatter Krognos
her mother → Holger Gregersen Krognos, til Vidskøfle & Heireholm
her father → Gregers Pedersen Krognos, til Vidskøfle
his father → Regitze Christoffersdatter Løvenbalk
his mother → Christopher II, King of Denmark
her father → Eric V Klipping, King of Denmark
his father → Christopher I, King of Denmark
his father → Berengária af Portugal, Dronning af Danmark
his mother → Dulce de Aragão, rainha-consorte de Portugal
her mother → Ramón Berenguer IV "el Santo" conde de Barcelona
her father → Douce I de Gévaudan, comtesse de Provence
his mother → Gerberge, comtesse de Provence
her mother → Geoffroi I, comte de Provence
her father → Guillaume III le Pieux, comte de Provence
his father → Adélaïde la Blanche d'Anjou, Reine consort d'Aquitaine
his mother → Fulk II, Count of Anjou
her father → Fulk, count of Anjou
his father → Ingelger, count of Anjou
his father → Petronelle de Gâtinais (D'auxerre)
his mother → Hugo, Archchancellor of the Empire
her father → Charlemagne
his father
'Ladran, Sancho, señal que cabalgamos', supuestamente dice el Quijote para hacer frente a los detractores.

However, YOU (George Brouwers) are apparently motivated by Charlemagne, somehow. You seem to place a high value on that kinship. And you say that Uracca is the link...

I think I'm done with this discussion.

It would be good if we all were.

Si no tiene sentido

Debra Denman PRO
1/7/2020 at 11:52 AM
Report
However, YOU (George Brouwers) is apparently somehow motivated by Charlemagne. You seem to attach a lot of value to that relationship. And you say that Uracca is the link ...
I think I'm done with this discussion.

Debra Denman
In April 2012 the book “The Ancestors of Barbara and Olivier Brouwers ISBN 978 90 6455 690 6 was published within my family. The author is Mr. F.W.J.M. Brouwers can be found in the Stamboom https://www.myheritage.nl/site-669249361/# under the name: Franciscus (Frans) Wilhelmus Johannes Maria Brouwers 1935-2015
Self, being the author of this site, under the name George Louis Leonardus Maria Brouwers 1930.
On page 24 of this book it says: the pedigree of Charlemagne. Begins with Charlemagne, empereur des Francs (742-814) and ends with Barbara and Olivier Brouwers, the author's two children. Urraca of Lombardia (966-1007) stands in the tree, being the wife of Gothelo I van Lothringen.
At a certain moment I started looking for Urraca from Lombardia with all its consequences.
After research there appear to be many question marks about Urraca from Lombardy / d’Ivrea et al. (And also Iunca) and one cannot simply place this woman in a tribe series.
Go and inform my family about this soon and have already done this with owners of websites in which she appears and came. Wish to protect our posterity from incorrect information.
I hope, Debra Denman, that this is a clear answer to your question.
George Brouwers
P.S. In one of Everart van Dijk's publications, the file now reads: "van Dijk Goemans page 1 rev" 3.34 MB Iunca d’Ivrea. This was recently Urraca d’Ivrea.
6. Berengar II d’Ivrea ± 900-966, re d’Italia
x Willa d’Arles
7. Iunca d’Ivrea ± 965- ± 1007
x Gothelo I "le Grand" ± 967-1044, duke de Lorra

Honesty and an open mind are always good policy and greatly appreciated, thank you.

Iunca, is it real name, or does it just mean, "joined" d’Ivrea, as in married?

I could not find anyone else named Iunca, if it was a name, could it have been another form of Julia or Guilia, "Giulia is the Italian version of the feminine given name Julia. The corresponding Italian male name is Giulio", or some kind of diminutive form?