Isabel Palmer - Isabel Palmer, Katherine Arderne

Yes, I was trying to merge those 2.

I've been trying to sort this out. This source - http://www.thepeerage.com/p46685.htm#i466846 has Isabel as the daughter and co-heiress of William, and wife of Robert Palmer I. But the dates don't line up. It makes more sense to have William's sister, Elizabeth Isobel 1343-1376, as the wife of Robert Palmer I. I have messaged Sharon Lee Doubell about this. Hopefully she can figure it out.

But I think you are right.

The dates for Katherine Arderne do not jibe at all with Robert Palmer. And her husband's dates line up with hers. I looked at your sources, but I'm trying to make sense of it.

Sharon Doubell, can you help?

Private User This is from where we've been unpicking the knot: https://www.geni.com/discussions/221390?msg=1429843 Come and help :-)

cf Katherine Arderne (Palmer)

And I'm stuck...

Private User
Do you have sources for dates for Catherine Ardernу, née Palmer, and her husband, George Arderne?
This source mentions Catherine Palmer, George Arderne, and their daughter Elizabeth Arderne, John Meade's wife without dates:
https://books.google.ru/books?id=BfcxAQAAIAAJ&newbks=1&newb...

All of these people are mentioned in the "Proceedings in the Court of Requests: Indexes ... " during the reign of James I (1603 to 1625):
https://books.google.ru/books?id=holUAAAAYAAJ&q=Meade+Arderne#v...

https://www.britannica.com/biography/James-I-king-of-England-and-Sc...

Private User
Sharon Doubell

I believe these references to George and Katherine Arderne, their daughter Elizabeth and her husband John Meade fit perfectly into Robert Palmer time frame.

What is your opinion?

Here are the marriage licenses for Elizabeth Arderne and John Meade and another daughter of George and Catherine Arderne, Anne and John Newman of Chichester:
https://archive.org/details/calendarofsussex12chicuoft/page/6/mode/...

Aug. 28, 1596 - John Newman of Chichester & Anne Ardern of same: sureties, Ralph Chauntler, citizen and alderman of Chichester, and George Ardern of same city, gent.
Sept. 28, 1607 - John Meade, clerk, & Elizabeth Ardern, daughter of George Ardern of Subdeanery, Chichester, gent. (Subdeanery, Chichester).

All details are listed in accordance with:
https://books.google.ru/books?hl=ru&id=BfcxAQAAIAAJ&q=Arder...

Here is deposition of George Ardern, taken 30 Sep. 1592:
f16. Dep. George Ardern gent of Chichester. Born Chichester. Age 37. Wit.sign.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/26eb6032-bcc3-4...

Most likely, this is the husband of Catherine Palmer.

And here, I believe, is the marriage date of Katherine Palmer and George Arderne:

Name: George Ardermne
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 18 Jan 1579
Event Place: Chichester, Sussex, England
Event Place (Original): Saint Peter The Great or Subdeanery of Chichester, Chichester, Sussex, England
Gender: Male
Spouse's Name: Katherine Palmer
Spouse's Gender: Female

GS Film Number: 504432
Digital Folder Number: 007906722
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M04046-1
System Origin: ODM

Citing this Record
"England Marriages, 1538–1973 ", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NV4K-Q5S : 13 March 2020), George Ardermne, 1579.

I was just looking at the dates as they are in Geni.

Robert Palmer's siblings are shown as being born between 1508 and 1526.

Katherine Arderne (Palmer) is shown as being born in 1359, and George Arderne as being born in 1363.

This is why I said the dates don't jibe. I have not researched it much further than that. Maybe those are different George and Katherine Palmer Arderne?

Private User

Unfortunately, on sites like thepeerage.com, MyHeritage, etc., there are tons of unsourced persons with unsourced dates. There are a lot of them on GENI too. Many of these entries are fake identities.

Looks like GENI has a lot of garbage for Arderne too. For example, on GENI, intended parents of George Arderne are George Arderne and Cecily de Bredbury, who has four husbands:
John De Arderne
Sir Peter Arderne, Kt.
Sir John Arderne, Kt.
George Arderne

If we look at the available sources for Arderne of Chester, there are a couple of Cecilia Bredbury and Peter de Arderne, but they don't have a son named George:
https://archive.org/details/historyofcountyp02orme/page/42/mode/2up...

If you are interested in the family of Arderne of Chester, there are other sources, for example:
https://books.google.ru/books?hl=ru&id=yIY1AQAAMAAJ&q=Arder...

Sharon Doubell

I think the best we can do in this case to keep Palmer's pedigree clean is:

- remove fake dates from George Arderne and Katherine Arderne (Palmer) ;
- disconnect them from their fake parents;
- connect Catherine to her parrents Robert Palmer and Mary Palmer

I have already added all the necessary sources for George Arderne and Katherine Arderne (Palmer)

George Arderne removed dates and locked empty

Katherine Arderne (Palmer) ditto

Disconnected George Arderne and Cecily de Bredbury as parents

Disconnected Robert Palmer and Isabell Stopham

Connected Catherine to her parents Robert Palmer, Jr. and Mary Audly Palmer

Good to see Sharon here adding sources.
Did hpwever notice between this Arderne and Ardern in NZ very few primary sources , if any at all on profiles.
Connections that might not be real perhaps until a primary source can substantiate that connection.

Truth

Sharon Doubell

I looked through some online genealogy resources and found that this fake connection between Palmer and Arderne was invented by modern day researchers of Denne's genealogy:
https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/arderne/5/

So, to keep the GENI clean, we also need to perform the following surgery:

- disconnect Alice Denne (Arderne) , wife of John Denne of Denne Hill from her fake father Richard Arderne , as this is chronologically impossible;

- disconnect Mary / Margery Aderne , wife of Richard Arderne from her fake father Sir Thomas Greene, Lord of Boughton and Earl of Northampton , as this is chronologically impossible;

- remove fake dates from Richard Arderne and his wife Mary / Margery Aderne

Sharon Doubell

Since this fake connection exists on almost every online resource, I suppose it would be nice if we provided as many sources as possible about this. Perhaps this will help the researchers of Dennу's genealogy not choose the wrong path.

It seems that we can provide more or less reliable dates for George Arderne beyond the date of his marriage sourced by "England Marriages, 1538–1973 ", database, FamilySearch.

Important information from SUSSEX ARCHEOLOGICAL COLLECTION VOL 100, P. 132 is quoted here (unfortunately this publication is not available online):

Kyme Family of Lewes: Ralph Chantler, in 1596 as second wife, married Judith (Bap 1565 Petworth, buried 1622 Subdeannery, Chichester. Ralph Chantler was an Alderman at St. Olave, Chichester and was buried thee in 1601. He married first, as her second husband, Ann nee Tyggoll (buried 1592 St. Olave) who had married first, George Arderne, who came from Cheshire (probably Offerton near Stockport) and in his Chichester will dated 1554 asked to be buried in the churchyard of St. Richard, Chichester. His son, also George Arderne, was buried 1614, St. Andrews, Chichester. George Arderne (2) was Mayor of Chichester and married 18 Jan 1579/80 as her first husband, Catherine Palmer, neice of Sir Thomas Palmer of Parham, Kent.

1614 as the death date of George Arderne makes sense, since his widow Catherine Arderne remarried in 1620 to John Cowper:
https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000164301862821

Deposition of George Ardern, taken on 30 Sep.1592 (f16. Dep. George Ardern gent of Chichester. Born Chichester. Age 37. Wit.sign.), makes him born around 1555.
https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000164290747043

SUSSEX ARCHEOLOGICAL COLLECTION VOL 100, p.132 states that his father's will is dated 1554, but the date of probate of this will is not specified. In fact, having made a will, a person could live a fairly long life to become the father of a child.

Heering genealogy, why use a fake name?

Private User

This is not a fake name, this is my real family name. This is my direct male ancestor:
Paul Joseph Heering

I represent my whole family in my genealogical research.

I am always open for personal communication, like Vadim Ponomarev, St. Petersburg, Russia.

Heering Ahnenforschung Nice, I asked for the simple reason that this site have had many fake user accounts, good that you're real, it makes it easier to trust in people with real names. Sorry for my reaction.

Heering - don't concern yourself. Ulf likes to troll.

Regarding these:

- disconnect Alice Denne (Arderne) , wife of John Denne of Denne Hill from her fake father Richard Arderne , as this is chronologically impossible;

- disconnect Margaret Greene Aderne , wife of Richard Arderne from her fake father Sir Thomas Greene, Lord of Boughton and Earl of Northampton , as this is chronologically impossible;
- remove fake dates from Richard Arderne and his wife Margaret Greene Aderne

Why is it more likely that they're fake, than that the dates are just wrong?

Private User do you want to take a look?

Sharon Doubell

It looks like the Denne and Greene genealogy is pretty well developed by various researchers, and the correct dates for John Denne of Denne Hill and Sir Thomas Greene, Lord of Boughton and Earl of Northampton are presented on GENI.

For John Denne there is his will of October 7, 1473, and for Thomas Greene - IPM of December 18, 1417:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=753447.0
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol20/pp234-248

I have attached documents to the relevant persons.

There is not much information about Richard Arderne in the available sources.
He was born after 1579, the date of his parents' wedding.
https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000164249594123

But on the whole, this is enough to confirm that this John Denne's wife Alice Denne (Arderne) is not his daughter, and Richard's wife Mary / Margery Aderne is not the daughter of this Thomas Greene.

Well done. Are there any fields you want me to lock down?