Richard Arderne - Not the father of Alice?

Heering Ahnenforschung replies:

Brian C. Brown
Sharon Doubell

Please see the discussion here:
https://www.geni.com/discussions/221710?msg=1436426

The problem is, the dates for Richard Arderne were not correct.

In fact, Richard Arderne was born after 1579, when his parents got married.

This is from "England Marriages, 1538–1973 " database, FamilySearch for George Arderne and https://www.geni.com/people/Katherine-Arderne-Palmer/60000000038823... , Richard's parrents.

Robert Palmer , the father of https://www.geni.com/people/Katherine-Arderne-Palmer/60000000038823... was born after 1520.
He was the younger brother of Sir Thomas Palmer I, Sheriff of Sussex , who was born around 1520.
Thomas' date of birth is known from his father's IPM:
https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000164070831413

Thus, chronologically, it is completely impossible for this Richard Arderne to be Alice Denne (Arderne) 's father.

All that is known about Alice's parentage is as follows:
"Joh'es Denne de Denne fil. et hae. duxit Aliciam filiam Ric'ardi Arderne"
https://archive.org/details/visitationofkent00camd/page/98/mode/2up

It is clear that Alice's father must be some other Richard Arderne.
So Alice Denne (Arderne) should be disconnected from Richard Arderne as a father.

Regarding this above "All that is known about Alice's parentage is as follows:
"Joh'es Denne de Denne fil. et hae. duxit Aliciam filiam Ric'ardi Arderne" https://archive.org/details/visitationofkent00camd/page/98/mode/2up "

I'm removing Alice Denne (Arderne) 's dates (below) pending sources - to see if that changes geni's guesstimates of Richard Arderne 's dates.

To be noted as well is that we cannot preclude the possibility that he was born before his parents' wedding in 1579

Alice Arderne Denne MP
Gender: Female
Birth: circa 1412
Kent, England, UK
Death: 1508 (91-101)
Denne Hill, Kingstone, Kent, England, (Present UK)

Richard Arderne MP
Gender: Male
Birth: estimated between 1442 and 1560
Chichester, West Sussex, England, United Kingdom
Death: Kent, England, (Present UK)

No - Richard Arderne 's date possibilities are still before 1579:

Richard Arderne MP
Gender: Male
Birth: estimated between 1435 and 1559
Chichester, West Sussex, England, United Kingdom

Heering Ahnenforschung, there must be other dates in this area that are wrong too - for your theory to hold. Can you look?

Sharon Doubell
Unfortunately long links don't work as expected after copy and paste, so I duplicated your post with the correct links.

Please see the discussion here:
https://www.geni.com/discussions/221710?msg=1436426

The problem is, the dates for Richard Arderne were not correct.

In fact, Richard Arderne was born after 1579, when his parents got married.

This is from "England Marriages, 1538–1973 " database, FamilySearch for George Arderne and Katherine Arderne (Palmer) , Richard's parrents.
https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000164249594123

Robert Palmer , the father of Katherine Arderne (Palmer) was born after 1520.
He was the younger brother of Sir Thomas Palmer I, Sheriff of Sussex , who was born around 1520.
Thomas' date of birth is known from his father's IPM:
https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000164070831413

Thus, chronologically, it is completely impossible for this Richard Arderne to be Alice Denne (Arderne) 's father.

All that is known about Alice's parentage is as follows:
"Joh'es Denne de Denne fil. et hae. duxit Aliciam filiam Ric'ardi Arderne"
https://archive.org/details/visitationofkent00camd/page/98/mode/2up

It is clear that Alice's father must be some other Richard Arderne.
So Alice Denne (Arderne) should be disconnected from Richard Arderne as a father.

To get a proper date possibilities for Richard Arderne, we need to disconnect Alice Denne (Arderne) from him and disconnect Mary / Margery Aderne, his wife, from Sir Thomas Greene, Lord of Boughton and Earl of Northampton.

Sir Thomas Greene, Lord of Boughton and Earl of Northampton and John Denne of Denne Hill have correct dates and these dates make wrong date possibilities for Richard Arderne due to existing connections.

Thanks for recopying, Heering.

All what is known about Mary / Margery Aderne 's parrentage is as follows:
"Mary d. of Thorm. Greene of West Marne in com. Sussex."
https://archive.org/details/visitationsofcou5354beno/page/n211/mode...

And Thomas Greene of West Marne. Sussex is definitely not Sir Thomas Greene, Lord of Boughton and Earl of Northampton , who is of Northamptonshire.

So Mary / Margery Aderne is not the daughter of Sir Thomas Greene, Lord of Boughton and Earl of Northampton

Re "Mary d. of Thorm. Greene of West Marne in com. Sussex." - Mary is not the same as Margaret?

It is not entirely clear what her name is Mary or Margaret.
In this secondary source, her name is given as Margery:
https://books.google.ru/books?hl=ru&id=BfcxAQAAIAAJ&q=Palme...

Possibly, these are two people - and Sussex Mary is the wife of Richard Ardenne, and mother to only Thomas, George, Richard, Catherine

while Northhamptonshire Margaret (husband unknown?) is mother of Anne, Frances and Alice

I know the only source for issue of Sir Thomas Greene, Lord of Boughton and Earl of Northampton , his IPM:
https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000164495373828
The IPM only mentions only his son and heir Sir Thomas Green, High Sheriff of Northamptonshire.

I do not know what is the source for his daughter Margaret.

There is also a secondary source for the Greenes of Northhampton, but there is no mention of Margaret either.
https://archive.org/details/greenefamilyinen00bost/page/n29/mode/2up

Except this - on Alice's profile - shows her as a daughter of Richard Ardenne

"The Visitation of Kent, 1619", by John Philipot, Rouge Dragon, Marshal and Deputy to William Camden, Clarenceux, edited by Robert Hovenden, F.S.A., page 99:

"Denne. ARMS.- Argent, two flanches sable, each charged with a leopard's face or. [Concess p'Claren. CAMDEN.- Harl. 6138.] Joh'es Denne de Denne fil. et hae. - duxit Aliciam filiam Rid'ardi Arderne. Michaell Denne de Denne p'mus fil. Jo. - Christiana filia et haeres...Combe."

Per "The Visitation of Kent, 1619", page 73:

"Joh'es Denne = Alicia filia Ric'di Arderne."

Sorry - that was an addition to my point - not a comment on above - that I hadn't seen.

Information about this Richard Arderne 's progenity is listed here:
https://archive.org/details/visitationsofcou5354beno/page/n211/mode...
https://books.google.ru/books?hl=ru&id=BfcxAQAAIAAJ&q=Palme...

There is no mention of Richard having a daughter named Alice.

Given the chronology, the Visitation of Kent mentions a different Richard Arderne.

Alice Denne (Arderne) should remain John Denne of Denne Hill 's wife, which is correct, but not related to this Richard Arderne as his daughter.

cf created Thomas Greene, of West Marne in Sussex

https://archive.org/details/visitationsofcou5354beno/page/n211/mode... says Richard's children are *Thomas *George *Richard * Catherin

https://books.google.ru/books?hl=ru&id=BfcxAQAAIAAJ&q=Palme... says Richard's children are
George *Richard * John *Catherine * Ann * Frances x Edward Osborne

Well that does make Richard's dates more likely

Richard Arderne MP
Gender: Male
Birth: estimated between 1560 and 1610
Chichester, West Sussex, England, United Kingdom

Alice's new father: Richard Arderne

I think the GENI's artificial intelligence calculates possible birth dates, considering only the actual and possible birth dates of related people. This AI does not take into account the parents' wedding date)))

Yes - I added that in once I could see it fell within possible parameters.
(Would be illogical to make the AI assume out of wedlock births do not occur :-))