Rhodri ap Owain, Lord of Anglesey - Wives of Rhodri ab Owain

Cawley has this for Rhodri:

RHODRI (-[1194/95]). The Chronicle of the Princes of Wales records that "Rhodri escaped from the prison of his brother David, and before the end of the year, he expelled David out of Mona and out of Gwynedd until he passed through the river Conway" in 1175[254]. The Chronicle of the Princes of Wales records that "Llywelyn son of Iorwerth and Rhodri son of Owain and the two sons of Cynan son of Owain combined against David son of Owain Gwynedd and oppugned all the territory of David, except three castles" in 1194[255]. Lord of Anglesey. The Annales Cambriæ record the death in 1195 of "Rodri filius Owini"[256]. m firstly NEST of Deheubarth, daughter of RHYS ap Gruffydd King of Deheubarth. The primary source which confirms her parentage and marriage has not been identfied. m secondly ([1191/92]%29 as her first husband, --- of Man, daughter of RAGNALD King of Man & [his wife ---] ([1182/83]-after 17 Feb 1205). She married secondly (Betrothed [1190]?, betrothal terminated [1191/92], [1195/96], separated [annulled] [1203/05]) as his first/second wife, Llywelyn ap Iorwerth Fawr ("the Great") Prince of North Wales. Her parentage, betrothals and two marriages are confirmed by the following documents. Pope Innocent III, by letter dated 24 Nov 1199, requested an enquiry after “R. princeps Norwaliæ” requested permission to marry “filiam...prinicipis Insularum” notwithstanding that “patruo eius eadem infra nubiles annos exstitit desponsata”, in particular investigating whether she was still under 7 years old [youngest canonical age for marriage at the time] when “a nepote, vel patruo desponsata”[257]. Pope Innocent III, by letter dated 19 Apr 1203, reported the enquiry after “N. princeps Norwalliæ” requested permission to marry “filiam...principis Insularum”, referring to his previous letter, confirming that “L. principe Norwalliæ” had been betrothed to “puella, completis octo annis”, that she was later betrothed to “patruo...suo”, that the enquiry found against the marriage but allowed it to stand to bring peace to the dispute[258]. Pope Innocent III issued a third letter dated 17 Feb 1205, after further facts emerged, annulling the marriage and recording that “ejusdem L. patruus ipsam” was betrothed to the girl when in her ninth year, married her in her tenth, and cohabited with her, including “in Manniam rediens” before he returned “in Walliam” by himself leaving his wife behind, for 2 years, 2 months and 15 days since their marriage[259]. Remfry notes that Dwnn’s Visitation incorrectly names “Rhunallt, the daughter of the king of Man” as wife of Gruffydd ap Llywelyn (see below) and suggests that this may represent confusion with the first/second wife of Llywelyn[260]. For Rhodri’s supposed descendants (presumably born from his first marriage), see "Jones-Lloyd" in Burke's Landed Gentry. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/WALES.htm#Rhodridied1195

Of the two Rhys daughters, Cawley has:

9. GWENLLIAN (-1236). The Annales Cambriæ record the death in 1236 of "Guenllian filia Resi Magni uxor Edneveth Vethan"[566]. m EDNYFED ap Cynwrig Fychan/junior, seneschal of Gwynedd, son of CYNWRIG & his wife --- (-1246).

11. NEST . The primary source which confirms her parentage and marriage has not been identfied. m as his first wife, RHODRI ap Owain Lord of Anglesey, son of OWAIN King of Gwynedd & his second wife Christina of Deheubarth (-[1194/95]).
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/WALES.htm#NestMRhodriAnglesey

Hope that's helpful :-)

Ok.

Bartrum calls first wife Gwenllian -- Wolcott disagrees. Whatever manuscripts Bartrum is using for Gwenllian he doesn't say -- he gives John Lloyd's History of Wales as the source for her death date.

I wish to high heaven Dwnn gave the mss that he's using, but no, can't have that. At any rate.

His entry on page 69 gives Annes ferch Rhys -- the same father as Gwenllian's, different name.

As you note, Steven, his entry on page 99 specifies Gwenllian as the wife of both Rhodri and Ednyfed Fychan -- no knowing what manuscript this either, though it's been checked by William Hughes and J. Davies. Whoever they are.

Cawley gives this wife as Nest, same family, different name. And says that there are no primary sources to confirm, which isn't exactly true, since Bartrum and Dwnn are both working from manuscripts, unnamed alas. And which contradict each other, as don't they often.

But where Cawley is getting the name Nest is totally unclear, since he cites no secondary sources and says there are no primary ones.

(I very rarely -- well, never, really -- look at Cawley for the Welsh; he's good, very good, but he's not clear on Welsh sources.)

Ok.

So we look at what Wolcott is saying:

"6. Gwenllian ferch Lord Rhys, born c. 1180. She married Ednyfed Fychan (c. 1165) the seneschal of Llewelyn Fawr of Gwynedd. Her death is recorded in 1236[17]. Most sources claim she also married Rhodri ap Owain Gwynedd, but we believe that was a different lady whose name was probably Annes. (see below)"

and

"24. Annes, born c. 1174. According to Gerald of Wales, when he met Rhodri ap Owain Gwynedd in 1188, "only a short time before Rhodri had taken the daughter of Prince Rhys as his mistress". Gerald did not name the lady[44]. Some medieval genealogists[45] say it was Gwenllian ferch Lord Rhys and that she was married to Rhodri before she married Ednyfed Fychan. We suggest Gwenllian, who married Ednyfed Fychan about 1195, was under 10 years of age in 1188 and would prefer the source which calls the mistress of Rhodri "Annes"[46]. And we suspect Rhodri, born c. 1135, already had sons her age in 1188, by an unknown wife. One source, which calls this daughter "Gwenllian", says she was the "graig" (wife) of Cynan ap Rhodri[47]. While that is chronologically impossible, she may have been the mother of Cynan.[48] "

That Giraldus Cambrensis says that the woman we are talking about was a mistress and not a wife is something I discount, because 1) Bartrum labels this a marriage and 2) in the section where Giraldus is describing Rhodri and his household, he's both annoyed that none of Rhodri's household took the cross, and also refers to Rhodri's wife as illicitly married to him, since they were cousins.

The Welsh not only didn't care about illegitimacy, they didn't care about degrees of relationship. (They were first cousins once removed, is what.)

So I think we can infer that indeed this was a wife. Giraldus goes up my nose.

Allrighty then!

Where are we --

Here is what I would do -- the children belong to a mother who is the daughter of Rhys ap Tudur. She is not her half sister Gwenllian, who married Ednyfed Fychan.

Her name is not Nest; dunno where that came from.

So, yes, I would agree with Wolcott, that her name is Annes, EXCEPT shse was a wife, not a partner.

Many thanks to you both for wrassling this!

Thank you Anne. Please go ahead and fix it. (Don't forget to unlock the RL or you'll spend a frustrating ten minutes having to redo everything twice :-)

Did you decide where the children should go?

Cawley isn't bible, by a long shot - but, when you're searching for 'truth' and you're not an historian in the area - he's useful (and almost alone online) because he tells you directly when he doesn't have sources, and what sources he has found if he has. Hopefully somebody helps update the Welsh section of Medlands ove the next years with the sources.

Take over Curatorship too. I'd just locked them in place to stabilize.

cf N.N. and N.N. ferch Ragnvald and Annest verch Rhys - so we don't lose this Discussion about them.

Have update profile and project with a link here too. Many thanks to the two of you for your scholarly additions.

Oh, bother.

Chronology and the Welsh genealogies.

a morass of boggy death traps.

Question from a position of genuine ignorance: 'How do we know Anne/st was too young?'

ie Why do we suspect this: "we suspect Rhodri, born c. 1135, already had sons her age in 1188, by an unknown wife."?

Sharon Doubell -- ah.

the foundational issue is that the Welsh genealogies from which Bartrum worked not only contradict each other but contain no dates. Bartrum ironed out many of the contradictions, but instead of using dates (unless they come in from one of the manuscripts or a scholarly study), used generational numbers.

Ok.

Wolcott has been working on a couple of fronts; one is, ironing out, when possible, the leftover contradictions that Bartrum left, using histories, land documents, etc. AND he's been adding in dates, which are speculative but derived at through looking at the documents.

Ok.

So -- the main Wolcott page that Steven is working with is this one -- http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id187.html

And the gist is this:

Giraldus Cambrensis says, in 1188, that Rhodri had recently become allied to Annes. (Giraldus has his knickers in a twist, as I mention above, but I'd accept that they were married. Whether they were or not would have made no never mind to the Welsh, though Giraldus would have been bothered. But they were first cousins once removed, so even a marriage would not have mollified Giraldus.) Ok. Rhodri was born, Wolcott argues, c. 1135 (what page the argument for that is on I'm not looking for at the moment, but it'll be on the site somewhere). This would make him nearly 53 when he got together with Annes, and it would be unusual that he did not have children already.

This makes sense - if that is his birthdate.

Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me. :-)

You are welcome. I am always happy to explain the Welsh thicket! I have maps.

Head. Desk.

Am sitting in a waiting room at the moment, so I will look at this tangle later.

There’s some reason I gravitated to this piece of the Tree but it’s not coming to mind at the moment……

A medieval puzzle to unravel - what fun :-)

Haven't gotten to the puzzle yet, but I will add this --

my experience in the Welsh genealogies is that they can be a bit loose with non-Welsh connections.

When I'm working with the Marcher Lords, for instance, it's often true that the Welsh sources give different Anglo-Normans as married to Welsh women or men, form the Anglo-Norman sources. And my take on this is that the Welsh sources have the Welsh right but not necessarily the Anglo-Norman.

Now, since, the Anglo-Norman sources mess up the Welsh continually, this seems to me to be simply a question of focus and knowledge.

And I would not be surprised if the Welsh sources also played loose with the Norse connections.

And conversely, I wouldn't be surprised if the Norse sources screwed up the Welsh sometimes.

Truth.

Thank you Steven.