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Chaiim Ber Voikhansky - Please add Voikhansky-Berezin tree to Khaimm Ber. All information according to Dror Voikhansky

Started by Moshe Max Varshavsky on Wednesday, January 3, 2024
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https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000199372980821

Hi
Could you please advise which profile you think needs to be added to his and what is the relationship and what is the source for that relationship.

What is the evidence that Dvora Berezin is his daughter. Please add sources to her profile.

I looked here becase I have a DNA match with Moshe's isolated tree https://www.geni.com/dna-tests/view-match?match_id=559613962

The isolated tree's patriarch Khaim Ber Vaikhansky has the same year of birth as Chaiim Ber Voikhansky (curated by Leanne) but both chilldren, Dvora and Shmuel, don't match

i.e. https://www.geni.com/merge/compare/6000000199247964832?to=600000005...
- I don't think so

more isolated tree that I think are questionable

https://www.geni.com/merge/compare/6000000149624749959?to=600000005...

https://www.geni.com/merge/compare/6000000176961104851?to=600000005...

https://www.geni.com/merge/compare/6000000193004801826?to=600000005...

https://www.geni.com/merge/compare/6000000188582207821?to=600000005...

This project explains about the problematic internet trees that people keep copying to Geni

https://www.geni.com/projects/Connected-to-Chaim-Ber-VOIKANSKY/47877

The “dna explanation” that I have heard is that both Chaiim and his father using many different names had relationships with 100’s of unknown women across many countries and fathered 100’s of children from the ages of 2 to over 100.
Whilst there might be some truth in that, the more likely dna explanation is endogamy given that they are Ashekenazi Jews.

Thanks Leanne. I would assume that his explots are the stuff of legends, probably greatly exaggerated.

Dror says, that it was his mistake that Dvora was Vaikhansky. The connections with Berezin is from Lisnyansky side. Shmuel is Vaikhansky and is not mentioed in tree curated by Leanne. There is his tree at myheritage.com.
In reference to Khaim Ber he fathered children from the age of 14 to his death from several women. I suggest, that those who were dna tested be added to one main tree.

Hם'w can I prove you here howall those people, that I added arre dna related and are related to other tested Voikhansky? Here there is no option to share screen.

Below the parent-child level, DNA alone is almost never enough whether endogamy or not to prove a specific relationship.

If they belong to a group with a lot of endogamy, sharing DNA per se does not prove anything.

DNA could prove a negative in that the absence of material matches indicates that the two people are not related.

DNA with overlap in the hundreds suggests that the two are related in some way, but proves nothing

Moshe Max Varshavsky

It depends on which dna test you have done. I assume it is an autosomol test.

The basic premise is that once you get a few generations back an autosomal DNA test is not enough to say that "test person A" and "test person B" have the same ancestor as C.

Ie I can use a DNA test to tell me that I am the 2nd cousin of a person, which means that most likely our great-grandparents are the same person. BUT I have 8 2nd Great Grandparents - the test will not tell which which of them it could be.

I then need to use source documents (birth records, marriage records, death records, baptism records, newspaper accounts (written at the time of the event), census records, travel records) to move backwards from me back to my ancestors and - and back from them to their ancestors

Ie I prove I am the child of my parents, then prove they are the child of my grandparents, then prove that they are the child of my great-grandparents.


The relationships that autosomol dna show is based on %.
Everyone gets 50% from each of your parents and their siblings also get 50% but it is probably not be the same 50%

Your parents got 50% from each of their parents - but that does not mean that you got 25% of your dna from each of your grandparents.

The relationships are parent/child is based on % - so a 2nd cousin once removed and a half-second cousin are about the same shared dna.

When endogamy is prevalent (as is the case with Ashkenazi Jews) - then often the dna % potentially shows a closer relationship than actual.
ie if cousins marry - their child will potentially have more of the shared great-grandparents dna than their other cousins children.

Re
www.geni.com/media/proxy?media_id=6000000201783448821&size=large

Have you seen this page written by Dror? https://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/vitsyebsk/Family_Stories/Voikhans... where he says
www.geni.com/media/proxy?media_id=6000000201783448822&size=large

Here is an example of why source documentation proving connectionsis needed

www.geni.com/media/proxy?media_id=6000000201783548846&size=large

www.geni.com/media/proxy?media_id=6000000201783349854&size=large

Many Vaikhansky made ydna tests and several ydna111. Those who have tradition of descend from Khaim Ber are L haplogroup, even they are from different wives. Autosomal tests of Dror, Aryeh Leib, Svetlana and Nelly indicate that they are closely related. I wanted to add all of them to one tree and associate their ftdna testst with geni.com, but you don't afford this. In Belarus most of records were not preseved from 1820 and 1830. Dna is a good indication of relationships especially if those people know each otger as relatives with the same last names.

ydna only changes between 2 and 7 times per 1000 generations

ydna proves that they had a common male ancestor - it does not prove that Chaim is that common ancestor.

Dimitri Vulis - re: "DNA could prove a negative in that the absence of material matches indicates that the two people are not related."

It is my understanding that it is the other way around.
No matching could certainly prove not parent-child.
But about 10% of 3rd cousins do not match, about 50% of 4th cousins do not match, and so on.
So no shared DNA proves nothing except maybe not 2nd cousin or closer (not sure about 2nd cousin, but have read possibility of no matching starts at 2nd once removed)

Re "So no shared DNA proves nothing except" - I agree

I have dna samples from 2 sets of siblings (my husbands father and her sister + his mother and her brother).

Although they all got 50% dna from their father and 50% from their mother because each received different dna segments from their parents - there are a lot of relatives who only have shared dna with one of them rather than both.

And because they are both jewish the relationships often show up closer than they are due to endogamy.

Re " I wanted to add all of them to one tree and associate their ftdna testst with geni.com, but you don't afford this. "

You can add each person that had a dna test to Geni and attach their dna test to their profile.

The dna relationship to other profiles will then show under the dna tab on the profile - If you want to see an example of this you can see that your father has 3315 autosomol matches on Geni.

What you can't do is add these people as the children of Chaiim or as siblings without documented evidence of that connection.

Would this satisfy both sides?? - could one create a Project "Suspected children of Chaim" or some such title - and in addition to adding the Profile to the Project, spell out what DNA evidence suggests they are a descendant of Chaim.
how many cMs and longest segment in a match with whom - and at which site
Any info on triangulated segments - including at which site
Any YDNA info, with details
If folks only identified by their links on Geni unless explicit permission was received to name them (and that mentioned) - would this be sufficient for doing that not to be a violation of the privacy of the living or??

And one could add references or links to documentation proving or suggesting their connection.

Projects, unlike Discussions - can be edited. And unlike connecting to a Tree, it is not impacting other people's connections to one another possibly incorrectly.

There is already a project with around 80 children that were already detached.

https://www.geni.com/projects/Connected-to-Chaim-Ber-VOIKANSKY/47877

Adding the dna to the descendants already provides the links to the other people who share dna.
Some have already added their dna - there are over 2100 profiles that share dna with Dror already on Geni.

The best way to show connections on Geni is to add sources and build the trees as per those sources.

As an aside, I assume that if anyone is adding someone else’s dna to Geni they have gotten permission from them for it to be added to Geni?

Private User

I do not know what you as a Curator can see.
But if I go to a Profile, if it is a Private Profile or a Geni User not in my Max Family, I have no access to its DNA Tab.
For those in my Max Family, if I go to their DNA Tab, and click on "View Detail" next to "Autosomal DNA (close relatives only)". I am only given the option to "View DNA Info" for those that are in my Max Family.
So no, no way to see on any Profile the DNA Info that I was suggesting be entered, even just for FTDNA for those with Kits linked.

And I was not suggesting the info entered be restricted just to just from FTDNA for those with Kits Linked
The fact that someone had permission from XXX to attach XXX's DNA to XXX's Profile in no way means that person or anyone else had permission from XXX to tell the world that XXX matches MMM at Ancestry with 48 cM shared, unweighted 50 cM shared, longest segment 11 cM, 8 segments shared. (for example) Or even the amounts on FTDNA even if the Kits are linked.
What I was suggesting was basically that with an explanation of how one or both were known relatives of Chaim/ why that suggested that so-and-so was a descendant of whom, etc.

If the DNA info was spelled out clearly, such as above, with the implications the poster sees, then others could chime in on - wow, looks really likely, lets search hard for documentation -- or, conversely -- that level is at least as likely to just be due to endogamy.
Or so I was thinking.

And just checked -- even clicking on "View DNA Info" for those that are in my Max Family does not give me that DNA info.

I am not sure to what extent "Adding the dna to the descendants already provides the links to the other people who share dna" is true or meaningful.

My having added the link to my FTDNA kit in no way results in my knowing when I go to the profile of someone else who has linked whether the two of us are a DNA match, never mind how many cMs we share, etc.
Even the weekly messages Geni sends out about matches to me do not give that info.
And Matches from my DNA Tab or the drop down Menu Notifications has no way to search on a name - just to search thru hunting for it.

If you have added your DNA to Geni - by going to the DNA tab on your own profile in profile view it will give you links to all the profiles you share DNA with and tell you the potential relationship.

Yes, if you have linked your DNA Kit to Geni, you can see all the others on Geni who have linked their Kit and that are among your matches -- and for each,
the cM shared and the longest segment shared. Both of those from FTDNA. And a suggested relationship, which is not from FTDNA but from a much simpler algorithm that does not take into consideration endogamy nor longest segment nor other factors that FTDNA takes into consideration. So Geni's relationship suggestions should be given even less credence than most.
It also will give you the option to see a side by side ancestor report for the two of you, which I do not think you can get anywhere else.
And View Match Details lets you view the matches you have in common and for each, how much it shares with each of you.

But no, that does not come close to providing the info I was trying to suggest might be provided in a Project.

Especially since finding a given match - if it is not among your most recent nor the ones you share the most with nor at one end or the other of the alphabet can be very hard -- and it can be very hard to determine on Geni if a given profile is among your matches.

What I was suggesting was basically that with an explanation of how one or both were known relatives of Chaim/ why that suggested that so-and-so was a descendant of whom, etc.

If the relationship is known and can be proven - then it can be added to Geni with the correct relationships

The problem here is that the relationship is not known - there is currently no genealogical evidence that has been provided that Chaim and his father both had relationships with hundred of women at the same time across many continents from a very young age to a very old age using multiple names. Perhaps there is some truth in this but Dror himself in other posts has said that Chaim was a Rabbi and only had 16 children - and from what I have seen they all had the same mother.

There is evidence that descendants of Chaim share dna with other people - many being descendants of Europeans who emigrated to America and their parentage is unknown.. They are Ashkenazie Jews so that shared dna might be from Chaiim, his father, his uncle, his brother, his cousin, his mother, his sister, his aunt, his son, his daughter or from many generations before them.

"If the relationship is known and can be proven - then it can be added to Geni with the correct relationships"

Totally agree with you.

Think we also agree that the following is NOT VALID and would not constitute proof - if I put this connection on my tree and that results in Thrulines showing me as being 5th cousin to XXX and my DNA match with XXX suggests we are 5th cousins, then that proves that connection must be true

Have not worked with Projects, which adds to my difficulty in trying to formulate what I was trying to suggest.

There are records that can be used to prove some connections.

I am currently putting in the Russian census records for some of the family.

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