Isabella de Warenne

Some sources say that it was Hamelin's daughter who married Roger de Bigod. The complete Peerage, that can usually be trusted makes no reference to this marriage, and nor does Weir.

Using Turton as a source, I orginally had Roger's wife as Ida Plantagenet, daughter of Hamelin Plantagenet and Isabel de Warenne. Mike Lysell, mlysell@attbi.com, posted the following correction, which led me to research and change Ida's ancestry (see post by SGM below):

Jim - You show Roger?s wife as Ida Plantagenent, Daughter of Hamelin Plantagenet and Isabelle de Warenne. Records indicate that Isabelle and Hamlin did not marry until 1164. At the time of Ida or Isabella?s birth, Isabelle de Warenne was married to William de Blois. According to Fredrick Weis, William de Blois died without issue.

I found the following information on Paul McBride's web page at homepages.rootsweb.com~pmcbride: ?Isabella (Ida) (1152-)

?NOT the daughter of Hameline Plantagenet and Isabel de Warren. Turton says she is the daughter of Hameline Plantagenet and Isabel de Warren, but many others dispute that.

b. ABT 1152 r. Sussex, Eng.

?Married first Henry_II Curtmantle King of England (1132-1189)

?Married second Roger BIGOD 2nd Earl of Norfolk (1150-1221)?

Paul also shows this Ida or Isabella as the mother of William Longespee. Paul lists a number of sources on his site.

According to a note on James Dow?s web site, a researcher named Ray Phail recently confirmed that Roger Bigod?s wife Ida and Henry II?s misteress Ida were the same person. I didn't see a date or any sources here.

I've no idea of the accuracy of the above but it does help explain the confusion over Hamilin and Isabelle's date of marriage and Ida Plantagenet's birth date.

Mike Lysell

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The following post by Paul Reed to SGM, 20 Sep 2000, analyzes the possible parents of Ida, but I tend to agree with Douglas Richardson (as suggested below) that Ida was daughter of Roger de Toeny and Margaret Beaumont, partially because the estimate of William's birth date is open to question: Royal sons, even bastard ones, tended to do things at a younger age (earlier than 21) than non-Royals, therefore I am keeping William's birth as "bef 1173". Even though Burke's Peerage and many other sources have William Longespee's mother as Rosemond de Clifford, Ida was established as William Longespee's mother and mistress of Henry II in a reference by William himself to his mother "Countess Ida".

From: Reedpcgen (reedpcgen@aol.com) Subject: Re: Countess Ida identification [more analysis--long] Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval Date: 2000/09/20

We can further narrow down the possible English parentage for Countess Ida with a little more certainty. To recap some past conclusions for newer members (and for those of us whose memories are not what they once were):

We had determined that DNB and the other standard sources that attributed a grant of the manor of Appelby, co. Lincoln, in 1188 to William Longespee (the illegitimate son of Henry) were in error. I had discussed evidence that showed it was held by other families at that period [see a post I made 7 March 1998], and John Sharp reminded us [posted to this group that same date] of an assize record that proved the William Longespee involved was actually the king's legitimate brother (also named William Longespee), not the illegitimate son.

We then determined--throwing out the erroneous attribution--that the earliest date we could attribute to William was 1191, which we concluded gave him an estimated birth date of 1170; but he could easily have been BORN EARLIER than 1170. This would give a date of conception in 1169, if not before.

[William Longespee was highly favored by his brother Richard I, being given important lands in 1191, and the entire Earldom of Salisbury with the five year old heiress in 1196. I take this to indicate that Richard and William were very familiar and had spent much time together before William attained majority -- possibly as a member of the royal household. Henry had plenty of other illegitimate offspring who were not awarded these honors and trust.]

How old was Ida when William Longespee was born? If we determine that fifteen was on the younger side for a mistress of Henry, but that she might possibly have been as old as twenty-five, we have a possible range for her birth between 1144 and 1154.

But remember, again, that William Longespee may well have been born before 1170; we might consider 1154 to be the latest year Ida might be expected to be born. The odds would be more favorable for an earlier year.

Let's compare this with what we know about the Toeni family. CP had determined that Roger [III] de Toeni was born possibly about 1104, given that his parents were married in 1103.

It would be ideal for a feudal lord to have a legitimate male heir right off the bat, but that did not always happen. The older sons might have been born first and died in their youth. Daughters might be born first. It would easily be possible that the husband of Ida of Hainault was born some years after 1110.

I had concluded that the heir of Ralph [V] de Toeni (Ida's son)--which heir was described as but a little boy at his father's death in 1162--was therefore likely born about 1155-1160. Adrian reminded me that CP 7:530, note "e" [under Leicester] states that Margaret de Beaumont did not married Ida of Hainault's son Ralph [V] de Toeni UNTIL AFTER 1155.

Given that Countess Ida was probably born BEFORE 1154, much more likely closer to 1144, she would not be daughter of Margaret de Beaumont. Remember that Ida of Hainault's second son, Roger [IIIa] de Toeni, married Ada/Aude de Chaumont, who was not born UNTIL about 1155. Another of Ida of Hainault's four sons went to be trained and fight with his uncle, Count Baldwin, and the last was a cleric.

Given this chronology, it may be that Ida of Hainault's sons were born about 1130-40 (remember, this is a very rough estimation). It would not be unreasonable for Ida of Hainault to have had a daughter also named Ida born about 1145-50.

If, on the other hand, Roger [III] de Toeni was actually born about 1104, and his wife Ida of Hainault a similar year (say 1105), Ida of Hainault might have had daughters born about 1125-30 who could themselves have had a daughter named Ida born about 1144-54.

Though any daughter of Ida of Hainault was a Toeni, their husband would have had a different surname. Remember that we are dealing with a very early period with relatively few surviving records to aid us. If Countess Ida was not a daughter of Ida of Hainault herself, but a granddaughter, odds are that she was NOT a daughter of one of Ida of Hainault's sons (and not a daughter of the eldest son by Margaret de Beaumont, who was married after 1155), but a daughter of one of Ida of Hainault's daughters.

Paul C. Reed, FASG (copyright)

PS I have been told that Doug's current stance is that Countess Ida was daughter of Margaret de Beaumont by Ralph de "Tony" [sic]. If he again adjusts his view, it is my opinion that he should credit the discussions here on this group. I tried having words with Doug at the FHL (terse words), but he did not seem to indicate any willingness or need to give credit to anyone other than himself in this instance.

I was also told that the current draft states that Countess Ida "evidently" became the mother of William Longespee about 1167-1169, though no explanation is made for this statement, and none of the sources he cites provides those dates. Unless he shows otherwise, it would appear to be taken directly from our discussions.

From Medlands:

HAMELIN d'Anjou, illegitimate son of GEOFFROI V “le Bel/Plantagenet” Comte d’Anjou & his mistress --- (1130-7 May 1202, bur Chapter House, Lewes). Benedict of Peterborough names "Hamelinus frater regis Henrici comes Warennæ" among those present at the coronation of King Richard I in 1189[1405]. Maybe Vicomte de Touraine. Earl of Surrey 1164 by right of his wife. "Hamelinus comes Guarennie" confirmed donations to Saint-Victor-en-Caux made by "Guillelmus de Guarenna et comes Guillelmus filius eius", for the soul of "uxoris mee Ysabel", by undated charter, witnessed by "Guillelmum de Guarenna filium meum…"[1406]. An undated charter of ”Johannes comes Warennæ” confirmed earlier donations to Thetford Priory by “Hamelinus comes Warenniæ” with the consent of “Isabellæ comitissæ Warenniæ uxoris meæ et Willielmi de Warennia filii et hæredis mei”, for the souls of “Henrici regis fratris mei et Gaufridi comitis Andegaviæ patris mei”, witnessed by “Willilemus de Warennia filius Reginaldi de Warennia…”[1407]. “Hamelinus comes de Warenna” donated property to Slevesholm Priory, with the consent of “Ysabellæ comitissæ uxoris meæ et Willielmi filii nostri”, by undated charter[1408]. “Hamelinus comes de Warenna et Hysabella comitissa mea” donated property to St Mary Overey Priory, Southwark, for the souls of “Willielmi primi, secundi et tertii, et…Gundredæ comitissæ et Hisabellæ comitissæ”, by undated charter[1409]. Advocate of the abbey of Saint-Bertin: "Hamelin…comes de Waringe et ecclesie beati Bertini advocatus" donated land "in parochia de Rokesthorn" to Saint-Bertin, for "uxoris mee filiique mei Willelmi", by charter dated to [1182][1410]. [m firstly ---. This first marriage is indicated by the chronology of Hamelin’s supposed daughter Mathilde, who had three children by her first husband who died in [1172] and so could not have been Hamelin’s daughter by his wife Isabelle de Warenne.]

m [secondly] ([Apr] 1164) as her second husband, ISABELLE de Warenne, widow of GUILLAUME de Blois Comte de Boulogne, daughter & heiress of WILLIAM [III] de Warenne Earl of Surrey & his wife Ela de Ponthieu (-[12 Jul 1203], bur Chapter House, Lewes). Robert of Torigny records the marriage in 1164 of "Hamelinus naturalis frater regis Henrici" and "comitissam de Guarenna, relictam Willelmi comitis Moritoni filii Stephani regis, …filia tercii Willermi comitis de Guarenna"[1411]. "Hamelinus comes Guarennie" confirmed donations to Saint-Victor-en-Caux made by "Guillelmus de Guarenna et comes Guillelmus filius eius", for the soul of "uxoris mee Ysabel", by undated charter, witnessed by "Guillelmum de Guarenna filium meum…"[1412]. “Hamelinus comes de Warenna” donated property to Slevesholm Priory, with the consent of “Ysabellæ comitissæ uxoris meæ et Willielmi filii nostri”, by undated charter[1413]. An undated charter of ”Johannes comes Warennæ” confirmed earlier donations to Thetford Priory by “Hamelinus comes Warenniæ” with the consent of “Isabellæ comitissæ Warenniæ uxoris meæ et Willielmi de Warennia filii et hæredis mei”[1414].

Hamelin & his [first wife] had [one child]:

1. [MATHILDE (-before 13 Dec 1228). Her first and second marriages are indicated by the charter dated Mar 1233 under which [her daughter by her second marriage] "Ælicia comitissa Augi in viduitate" granted revenue from "molendino de Duno" to “in matrimonium Ælidæ filiæ Petri de Pratellis fratris mei”[1415]. Her connection with the Warenne family is indicated by the undated charter under which her daughter “Haelisia comitissa Augy quondam uxor Radulfi de Ysondun comitis Augy” donated property to Roche Abbey, witnessed by “domino Willielmo comite Warennæ avunculo meo…”[1416]. Because Mathilde had three children by her first husband who died in [1172], she could not have been the daughter of Hamelin by his wife Isabelle de Warenne. There are therefore two possibilities: either she was Hamelin’s daughter by an otherwise unrecorded earlier marriage or she was the daughter of Isabelle de Warenne by her first marriage. The latter possibility is unlikely as any daughter of Guillaume de Blois Comte de Boulogne would have been Ctss de Boulogne instead of Guillaume’s sister. In any case, the chronology would be tight for Mathilde to have been Isabelle’s daughter. Until more information comes to light, it is supposed that Mathilde was the daughter of Hamelin by an earlier marriage. Thomas Stapleton, in his "Observations on the Great Rolls of the Exchequer of Normandy", records that "Osbert de Préaux" donated tithes from harvest in the parish of Bois l’Evêque to the monks of Holy Trinity of Mont-de-Rouen, for his own soul “those of his parents and of the parents of his wife Matildis”, undated, and that his wife and “their sons Simon and John” granted the tythe to the monks in perpetuity, but he does not cite the source reference[1417]. The primary source which confirms her third marriage has not yet been identified. The wording of the charter of her son Pierre, dated to [Jun 1200], suggests that his mother might have died before that date: “Petrus de Pratell” donated annual revenue to Notre-Dame de Beaulieu, for the salvation of “mee et patris mei et matris mee et fratrum meorum...Simonis et Rogeri, Iohannis et Engerranni”[1418]. If this charter is correctly dated, at least two of the donor’s brothers were alive at that time, while his father was certainly deceased. The question then is determining the significance, if any, between his parents not being named in the document while his brothers are named. One possibility is that the unnamed individuals (and therefore including the donor’s mother) were deceased, but the named brothers were living. It should be emphasised that this observation is speculative. m firstly ([1163/67]%29 OSBERT de Préaux, son of --- (-before 1172). m secondly HENRI [II] Comte d'Eu Lord of Hastings, son of JEAN [I] Comte d'Eu & his wife Alice d'Aubigny of Arundel (-16/17 Jul [1190/91]). m thirdly HENRY de Stuteville Lord of Eckington co Derby, Seigneur de Valmont et de Rames (-before 1236).]

Hamelin & his [second] wife had [four] children:

2. WILLIAM [IV] de Warenne (1166-London 27 May 1240, bur Lewes Priory). "Hamelinus comes Guarennie" confirmed donations to Saint-Victor-en-Caux made by "Guillelmus de Guarenna et comes Guillelmus filius eius", for the soul of "uxoris mee Ysabel", by undated charter, witnessed by "Guillelmum de Guarenna filium meum…"[1419]. He succeeded his father in 1202 as Earl of Surrey. - see below.

3. ELA de Warenne ). The Complete Peerage names “Ela” as daughter of Earl William and her husbands firstly “Robert de Newburn of whom nothing is known” and secondly “William FitzWilliam of Sprotborough”, but does not cite the primary sources on which this information is based[1420]. The primary source which confirms her parentage and two marriages has not yet been identified. m firstly ROBERT de Newburn, son of ---. m secondly as his [second] wife, WILLIAM FitzWilliam of Sprotbrough, Yorkshire, son of WILLIAM FitzWilliam & his wife Avice de Tanai (-[9 Feb 1219/1224]).

4. ISABEL de Warenne (-before 30 Nov 1234). A manuscript history of the Lacy family names “Isabella” as wife of “Robertus Lacy”, adding that they were childless[1421]. The 1194/95 Pipe Roll records "Ysabel que fuit uxor Roberti de Laci" owing in Yorkshire "pro habenda dota sua de terra eiusdem Roberti"[1422]. The Testa de Nevill includes a writ of King John dated 1212 which records that "Gileberti de Aquila" married "comes Warennie…sorore sua" whose dowry was "villa de Westcot…hundredum de Wudetun" in Surrey[1423]. m firstly ROBERT de Lacy, son of HENRY de Lacy & his wife Aubreye de Vesci (-21 Aug 1193, bur Kirkstall Abbey). m secondly ([1196]) GILBERT de Laigle Lord of Pevensey, son of RICHER de Laigle & his wife Edelina --- (-1231)

5. [daughter (-[killed 1200]). According to Given-Wilson & Curteis[1424], one of the mistresses of King John was the "sister of William de Warenne" but the authors do not specify which sister she was. The Chronicle of Robert of Gloucester names "Richard fiz le rei…Ion" and "the erles daughter of Wareine" his mother[1425]. The Annales Cestrienses record in 1200 that “W. de Waren meunch fil Regis” was killed[1426]. Christie suggests that one possibility is that “meunch” in this source may represent a contraction of “mater Richardi”, another possibility being that it represents “avunculus” and that the entry refers to the death of William de Warenne (although if that is correct, the date makes little sense)[1427]. Mistress of JOHN of England, son of HENRY II King of England & Eléonore Dss d'Aquitaine (Beaumont Palace, Oxford 24 Dec 1167-Newark Castle, Lincolnshire 18/19 Oct 1216, bur Worcester Cathedral). He succeeded in 1199 as JOHN King of England.]