from dbigelow, curator

I would recommend a name change to this profile. Cawley in his section on the seigneurs de Preaux identity Osbert de Preaux as married to Mathilde _ daughter of Hamelin D’Anjou. He then presents the convincing argument that Mathilde was the daughter by an earlier unrecorded marriage and NOT a daughter of Isabelle de Warenne his second wife. Her birth name would have d’Anjou under those circumstances, whether assuming the patronymic or toponymic approach, and since there is no evidence at all suggesting that her name was changed, it should remain d’Anjou.

Further, as was the custom in early medieval Europe, women did not change their surname upon marriage to that of their husband. She would have been therefore Mathilde d’Anjou to all three husbands.

I recognize that there is limited primary sources, and Cawley himself says “It should be emphasised that this observation is speculative”, for this but the alternative, as shown now, suggests that she was the daughter of Hamelin d’Anjou after his marriage to Isabelle de Warenne, and that we have a high degree of suspicion was not the case. It is much now logical, given the speculative nature of the information, to not presume a name change. See highlighted line below.

A note on the coat of arms, it is presumed that Hamelin would have used a labeled version of his fathers arms, but I find no records of which label so have presumed here that his daughter would have used her fathers arms. The arms shown are those of the House of Plantagenet, Counts of Gâtinais and Anjou, Earlier referred as House of Gâtinais and House of Anjou that would have been used by Hamelin father ———————————-

From http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLAND,%20Kings%201066-1603.htm

Mistress (1): --- de Warenne, daughter of HAMELIN d´Anjou Earl of Surrey & his [second] wife Isabel de Warenne of Surrey (-[killed 1200]). According to Given-Wilson & Curteis[588], one of the mistresses of King John was the "sister of William de Warenne" but the authors do not specify which sister she was. The Chronicle of Robert of Gloucester names "Richard fiz le rei…Ion" and "the erles daughter of Wareine" his mother[589]. The Annales Cestrienses record in 1200 that “W. de Waren meunch fil Regis” was killed[590]. Christie suggests that one possibility is that “meunch” in this source may represent a contraction of “mater Richardi”, another possibility being that it represents “avunculus” and that the entry refers to the death of William de Warenne (although if that is correct, the date makes little sense)[591].

(Curator note-dvb: based on updated information in MEDLANDS Mr. Cawley now thinks Mathilde was a half-sister of William. Under JOHN, son of HENRY II King of England he does include “ Mistress (1): --- de Warenne, daughter of HAMELIN d´Anjou Earl of Surrey & his [second] wife Isabel de Warenne of Surrey”, which he then seems to refute in the entry under her father Hamelin d’Anjou shown below)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HAMELIN d'Anjou, illegitimate son of GEOFFROI V “le Bel/Plantagenet” Comte d’Anjou & his mistress --- ([1130]-7 May 1202, bur Chapter House, Lewes). Benedict of Peterborough names "Hamelinus frater regis Henrici comes Warennæ" among those present at the coronation of King Richard I in 1189[1219]. Maybe Vicomte de Touraine. Earl of Surrey 1164 by right of his wife. "Hamelinus comes Guarennie" confirmed donations to Saint-Victor-en-Caux made by "Guillelmus de Guarenna et comes Guillelmus filius eius", for the soul of "uxoris mee Ysabel", by undated charter, witnessed by "Guillelmum de Guarenna filium meum…"[1220]. An undated charter of ”Johannes comes Warennæ” confirmed earlier donations to Thetford Priory by “Hamelinus comes Warenniæ” with the consent of “Isabellæ comitissæ Warenniæ uxoris meæ et Willielmi de Warennia filii et hæredis mei”, for the souls of “Henrici regis fratris mei et Gaufridi comitis Andegaviæ patris mei”, witnessed by “Willilemus de Warennia filius Reginaldi de Warennia…”[1221]. “Hamelinus comes de Warenna” donated property to Slevesholm Priory, with the consent of “Ysabellæ comitissæ uxoris meæ et Willielmi filii nostri”, by undated charter[1222]. “Hamelinus comes de Warenna et Hysabella comitissa mea” donated property to St Mary Overey Priory, Southwark, for the souls of “Willielmi primi, secundi et tertii, et…Gundredæ comitissæ et Hisabellæ comitissæ”, by undated charter[1223]. Advocate of the abbey of Saint-Bertin: "Hamelin…comes de Waringe et ecclesie beati Bertini advocatus" donated land "in parochia de Rokesthorn" to Saint-Bertin, for "uxoris mee filiique mei Willelmi", by charter dated to [1182][1224]. [m firstly ---. This first marriage is indicated by the chronology of Hamelin’s supposed daughter Mathilde, who had three children by her first husband who died in [1172] and so could not have been Hamelin’s daughter by his wife Isabelle de Warenne.] m [secondly] ([Apr] 1164) as her second husband, ISABELLE de Warenne, widow of GUILLAUME de Blois Comte de Boulogne, daughter & heiress of WILLIAM [III] de Warenne Earl of Surrey & his wife Ela de Ponthieu (-[12 Jul 1203], bur Chapter House, Lewes). Robert of Torigny records the marriage in 1164 of "Hamelinus naturalis frater regis Henrici" and "comitissam de Guarenna, relictam Willelmi comitis Moritoni filii Stephani regis, …filia tercii Willermi comitis de Guarenna"[1225]. "Hamelinus comes Guarennie" confirmed donations to Saint-Victor-en-Caux made by "Guillelmus de Guarenna et comes Guillelmus filius eius", for the soul of "uxoris mee Ysabel", by undated charter, witnessed by "Guillelmum de Guarenna filium meum…"[1226]. “Hamelinus comes de Warenna” donated property to Slevesholm Priory, with the consent of “Ysabellæ comitissæ uxoris meæ et Willielmi filii nostri”, by undated charter[1227]. An undated charter of ”Johannes comes Warennæ” confirmed earlier donations to Thetford Priory by “Hamelinus comes Warenniæ” with the consent of “Isabellæ comitissæ Warenniæ uxoris meæ et Willielmi de Warennia filii et hæredis mei”[1228]. Hamelin & his [first wife] had [one child]:

1. [MATHILDE (-before 13 Dec 1228). Her first and second marriages are indicated by the charter dated Mar 1233 under which [her daughter by her second marriage] "Ælicia comitissa Augi in viduitate" granted revenue from "molendino de Duno" to “in matrimonium Ælidæ filiæ Petri de Pratellis fratris mei”[1229]. Her connection with the Warenne family is indicated by the undated charter under which her daughter “Haelisia comitissa Augy quondam uxor Radulfi de Ysondun comitis Augy” donated property to Roche Abbey, witnessed by “domino Willielmo comite Warennæ avunculo meo…”[1230]. Because Mathilde had three children by her first husband who died in [1172], she could not have been the daughter of Hamelin by his wife Isabelle de Warenne. There are therefore two possibilities: either she was Hamelin’s daughter by an otherwise unrecorded earlier marriage or she was the daughter of Isabelle de Warenne by her first marriage. The latter possibility is unlikely as any daughter of Guillaume de Blois Comte de Boulogne would have been Ctss de Boulogne instead of Guillaume’s sister. In any case, the chronology would be tight for Mathilde to have been Isabelle’s daughter. Until more information comes to light, it is supposed that Mathilde was the daughter of Hamelin by an earlier marriage. Thomas Stapleton, in his "Observations on the Great Rolls of the Exchequer of Normandy", records that "Osbert de Préaux" donated tithes from harvest in the parish of Bois l’Evêque to the monks of Holy Trinity of Mont-de-Rouen, for his own soul “those of his parents and of the parents of his wife Matildis”, undated, and that his wife and “their sons Simon and John” granted the tythe to the monks in perpetuity, but he does not cite the source reference[1231]. The primary source which confirms her third marriage has not yet been identified. The wording of the charter of her son Pierre, dated to [Jun 1200], suggests that his mother might have died before that date: “Petrus de Pratell” donated annual revenue to Notre-Dame de Beaulieu, for the salvation of “mee et patris mei et matris mee et fratrum meorum...Simonis et Rogeri, Iohannis et Engerranni”[1232]. If this charter is correctly dated, at least two of the donor’s brothers were alive at that time, while his father was certainly deceased. The question then is determining the significance, if any, between his parents not being named in the document while his brothers are named. One possibility is that the unnamed individuals (and therefore including the donor’s mother) were deceased, but the named brothers were living. It should be emphasised that this observation is speculative. m firstly ([1163/67]%29 OSBERT de Préaux, son of --- (-before 1172). m secondly HENRI [II] Comte d'Eu Lord of Hastings, son of JEAN [I] Comte d'Eu & his wife Alice d'Aubigny of Arundel (-16/17 Jul [1190/91]). m thirdly HENRY de Stuteville Lord of Eckington co Derby, Seigneur de Valmont et de Rames (-before 1236).]

Added by Keri Denise Jackson, ♊ Twin "A" on 10/12/2020

She may be a different person named Mathilde, not the daughter of Hamelin d’Anjou, 4th Earl of Surrey and Isabella de Warrene, 4th Countess of Surrey, who married Osbert de Preaux..

Now I know this is not a primary source but

https://gw.geneanet.org/pierfit?lang=fr&p=mathilde&n=n

Geneanet.org states that the Mathilde that married Osbert the surname is unknown. Is it possible that there were at least two different Mathilde and they became conflated?

But Medlands states under Henri d'Eu m ([after 1172]) as her second husband, MATHILDE, widow of OSBERT de Préaux, daughter of [HAMELIN d'Anjou Earl of Surrey & his first wife ---] (-before 13 Dec 1228). This is listed under Henri d'Eu not on Hamelin d'Anjou or Isabelle de Warenne.

An argument in favor of there being at least two different Mathilde is this

Is the date of birth of Osbert's children. According to all sources Mathilde, Hamelin's daughter, was born 1162/65 . She would have been too young to have children at the time. Unless she was 0-10 years old when she married and had a child. Maybe Osbert had prior wife who was the mother of his children? Are the children's date of birth correct? What are the correct dates of birth?

I believe that there were two different Mathilde after working through all possible questions and possibilities as well as looking to see if the dates make sense and in my opinion they do not. I have come to this conclusion .

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/normacre.htm#NicholasEstoutevilled... states that HENRI d’Estouteville, son of ROBERT [IV] d’Estouteville & his wife Léonie, m MATHILDE d’Eu, daughter of JEAN [I] Comte d'Eu & his wife Alice d'Aubigny of Arundel. I believe that we are looking at at least two different women.

Which Mathilde is the daughter of Hamelin d'Anjou?

Going on the premise that there are at least two different Mathilde here is what we know so far

1. Hamelin D'Anjou had a daughter named Mahaut/Mahant de Warenne.
2. Mahaut/Mahant may also be known as Mathilde or Maud.
3. Osbert de Preaux according to some sources was married to a Mathilde.
4. If Mathilde was born in 1162/65 then she would have been to young to be the mother of Osbert's children. Unless the dates shown are incorrect.
5. The Peerage states that it was Adele who was King John's mistress and not Mahaut/Mahant.
6. Medlands states that Mathilde may have been from an unknown first wife or mistress.
7. Medlands states that the Mathilde that married Henry d'Eu m ([after 1172]) as her second husband, MATHILDE, widow of OSBERT de Préaux, daughter of [HAMELIN d'Anjou Earl of Surrey & his first wife ---] (-before 13 Dec 1228).

   ---

   
   

Charles Cawley

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL.htm#H... thinks she is the same person as the Matilda/Maud who married Henri d'Eu and Henry de Stuteville, but that she was from an undocumented first marriage (because she had six sons and possibly one or more daughters by Osbert de Preaux between c. 1165-1180). (Fitting them all into the available timeline is difficult - perhaps there was at least one set of twins.)

It is also possible, obviously, that she was a "wild oat" from Hamelin's youth, who just happened to have been given the same name as his later daughter by Isabelle de Warenne.

Note: BEFORE marrying Isabelle, Hamelin was known as "Hamelin d'Anjou" (or sometimes "Hamelin Fitz Geoffrey").

http://gw.geneanet.org/wailly?lang=fr&p=mathilde+plantagenet&n=de+w...

Mathilde Plantagenet de WARENNE

The following was added by Keri Denise Jackson, ♊ Twin "A" on 10/10/2020

Was Mathilde the daughter of Hamelin and an unknown first wife or Isabelle De Warenne? Or was she the daughter of Isabelle from her first marriage?

The Peerage ( http://www.thepeerage.com/p10676.htm#i106759 ) does not list any other wife or any mistress for Hamelin d'Anjou, 5th Earl of Surrey. Medlands infers that Mathilde may have been from a previous wife or mistress.

Medlands ( https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL.htm#... ) states "The latter possibility is unlikely as any daughter of Guillaume de Blois Comte de Boulogne would have been Ctss de Boulogne instead of Guillaume’s sister. In any case, the chronology would be tight for Mathilde to have been Isabelle’s daughter. Until more information comes to light, it is supposed that Mathilde was the daughter of Hamelin by an earlier marriage."

Medlands ( https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL.htm#... ) further states under HAMELIN d'Anjou the following

[m firstly ---. This first marriage is indicated by the chronology of Hamelin’s supposed daughter Mathilde, who had three children by her first husband who died in [1172] and so could not have been Hamelin’s daughter by his wife Isabelle de Warenne.]

m [secondly] ([Apr] 1164) as her second husband, ISABELLE de Warenne, widow of GUILLAUME de Blois Comte de Boulogne, daughter & heiress of WILLIAM [III] de Warenne Earl of Surrey & his wife Ela de Ponthieu (-[12 Jul 1203], bur Chapter House, Lewes).

The Peerage states that Mahant is the daughter of Hamelin d'Anjou, 5th Earl of Surrey and Isabella de Warenne. http://www.thepeerage.com/p10678.htm#i106771 and she married only two times , "she married, firstly, Henry d'Eu, 6th Comte d'Eu, son of Jean d'Eu, 5th Comte d'Eu and Alice d'Aubigny. She married, secondly, Henry d'Estouteville, son of Robert d'Estouteville and Leonia of Salisbury, she had a total of 7 children which are listed and that she died between 1212 and 1228." It lists her date of birth as 1163 but says Hamelin and Isabelle were married in April 1164. But Medlands refers to Mathilde was the widow of Osbert de Preaux.

The following was added by Keri Denise Jackson, ♊ Twin "A" on 10/10/2020

Who was ____de Warenne, daughter of Hamelin d'Anjou and Isabelle de Warenne? Who was King John's Mistress?

Now according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamelin_de_Warenne,_Earl_of_Surrey

Marriage and children of Hamelin de Warenne, Earl of Surrey and Isabel de Warenne, 4th Countess of Surrey

King Henry II arranged for him to marry one of the wealthiest heiresses in England, Isabel de Warenne, 4th Countess of Surrey, the widow of William of Blois. Hamelin and Isabella married in April 1164, and after the marriage he was recognized as Comte de Warenne, that being the customary designation for what more technically should be Earl of Surrey. In consequence of the marriage Hamelin adopted the surname de Warenne, as did his descendants. By his wife he had one son and four daughters as follows:

• William de Warenne, 5th Earl of Surrey, only son and heir, who married Maud Marshal.
• Clemence (aka Adela), mistress of her cousin King John, and by him the mother of Richard FitzRoy, feudal baron of Chilham, in Kent.
• Ela, who married firstly Robert de Newburgh and secondly William FitzWilliam of Sprotborough. She also had a son with King John of England named Richard FitzRoy
• Maud (alias Matilda), who married firstly Henry II, Count of Eu and Lord of Hastings, secondly Henry d'Estouteville, Seigneur de Valmont.
• Isabel, who married firstly Robert de Lacy of Pontefract, and secondly Gilbert de l'Aigle, Lord of Pevensey.

Now I don't believe there are two different Richard FitzRoys but maybe that is why there is no first name and just ___de Warenne in Medlands. According to this both Adela and Ela were King John's Mistresses . Geni has Adela and Ela as the same person. I have not changed it on Wikipedia as of yet so I can research this further. They also list a daughter named Maud.

Then we have http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Anjou-Gatinais.pdf which states the following:

"Hamelin d’Anjou et Isabelle de Warenn chilcen were

Isabelle de Warenne + ~30/11/1234 ép. 1) Robert de Lacy + 1193 ép. 2) ~1196 Guilbert de L’Aigle, Lord of Pevensey + 1231

Ela (Adela) de Warenne ° 1162 (Surrey) + après 1220 ép. 1) Robert de Newburn ép. 2) William FitzWilliam of Sprotborough ° 1170 (Hopton, York) + 1219/24

Mahaut de Warenne ° ~1162/65 + ~13/12/1228 ép. 1) Henri, comte d’Eu, Lord of Hastings + 1190/91 ép. 2) Henri d’Estouteville, seigneur d’Estouteville Rames et Valmont, baron de Cleuville, Lord of Eckington, chevalier banneret + 05/04/1232

William de Warenne ° ~1166/75 + 27/05/1240 earl of Warenne, 2° earl of Surrey ép. 1) Mathilde d’Aubigny + 1216 ép. 2) avant 13/10/1225 Maud Marshal ° ~1171/90 + 27/03/1248 (fille de William 1° earl of Pembroke)

Is Maud the same person as Mathilde or another person?

Maud is often used as a shortened version of Matilda or Mathilde. Have not seen any other daughter mentioned as Maud anywhere else yet.

The Peerage states that it was Adela ( http://www.thepeerage.com/p10492.htm#i104919 ) who was mistress to King John and had a son by him named Richard Fitzroy, Baron of Chilham and for Ela ( http://www.thepeerage.com/p10677.htm#i106768 ) they do not state that she was anyone's mistress but was married to Robert de Newburn.and William FitzWilliam with no children listed. http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Anjou-Gatinais.pdf does not state which sister or if any sister was the Mistress of King John.

Added by Keri Denise Jackson, ♊ Twin "A" on 10/12/2020

http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Anjou-Gatinais.pdf States that her name was Mahaut and again only 2 marriages.

Mahaut de Warenne ° ~1162/65 + ~13/12/1228 ép. 1) Henri, comte d’Eu, Lord of Hastings + 1190/91 ép. 2) Henri d’Estouteville, seigneur d’Estouteville Rames et Valmont, baron de Cleuville, Lord of Eckington, chevalier banneret + 05/04/1232

Sources

• http://www.thepeerage.com/p10205.htm#i102044
• http://www.thepeerage.com/p10217.htm#i102165
• http://www.thepeerage.com/p10676.htm#i106759
• http://www.thepeerage.com/p10678.htm#i106771
• http://www.thepeerage.com/p10204.htm#i102039
• https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL.htm
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamelin_de_Warenne,_Earl_of_Surrey
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabel_de_Warenne,_Countess_of_Surrey
• http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Anjou-Gatinais.pdf
• https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/normacre.htm