Raoul 1er de Laon, comte de Laon et de Senlis, comte de Vexin, Amiens et Valois

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Raoul 1er de Laon, comte de Laon et de Senlis, comte de Vexin, Amiens et Valois

Also Known As: "Raoul 1er de Vexin", "Raoul I er Gouy (See note)", "Raoul Ier d'Ostrevent"
Birthdate:
Birthplace: Vexin français, bounded by the rivers Epte, Oise and Seine, which remained part of the Île-de-France province, France
Death: 926 (48-58)
Valois, Oise, Picardy, France
Immediate Family:

Son of Gauthier, comte de Laon and Heilwis d'Ostrevant
Husband of Hildegarde d'Amiens, héritière d'Amiens et Gozdert
Father of Raoul II de Vexin, count of Vexin , Amiens and Valois (926-943) and Gautier I, comte du Vexin
Half brother of Roger II de Laon, comte de Laon (926-931)

Occupation: comte de Laon et de Senlis, comte de Vexin, Amiens et Valois
Managed by: Private User
Last Updated:

About Raoul 1er de Laon, comte de Laon et de Senlis, comte de Vexin, Amiens et Valois

The Vexin House as a lineage, appeared at the end of the ix th century, from the Count Raoul I st of Vexin . He died in 1080. The origin of this family is not known, but probably of high lineage, since the mother of the first known member would be a descendant of Louis the Pious .

The first count, Raoul I er is the son of a Heilwis, or Helvide, who remarries in second marriage to the count Roger I er of Laon . This Heilwis is traditionally identified with Heilwis of Frioul, daughter of Eberhard , Marquis of Frioul and of the Carolingian Gisèle . But this identification poses a chronological problem, because born before 850, she would have had at least two children from 895 , which is unlikely.

Another hypothesis has been put forward: Helwis, wife of Roger de Laon, would be the daughter of Hucbald de Gouy and Heilwis de Frioul. Her first husband would be Gautier de Laon , which would explain the appearance of the first name of Gautier among the counts of Vexin.

It is this hypothesis that was used in the reconstruction of this branch of the House of Vexin on Geni. The basis of this reconstruction is onomastics, which is “the study of the history and origin of proper names, especially personal names.” Leading experts Katherine Keats-Rohan and Christian Settipani et. al. have contributed both to this new aspect of genealogical study but also through their studies specifically to this part of “the big tree”. Their work for use in this reconstruction is extracted from https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maison_de_Vexin but refer for details to their original work Onomastique et Parenté dans l'Occident médiéval, Oxford, Linacre College, Unit for Prosopographical Research, coll. « Prosopographica et Genealogica / 3 », 2000, 310 p. (ISBN 1-900934-01-9)

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Birth location from entomology study of: Gouy-sous-Bellonne, Pas-de-Calais, Hauts-de-France,

877: Villam Gaugiacum in pago Ostrebanno (Gouy en pays d'Ostrevent) - (Marchiennes cartulary) 1102: Goyacum 13th century: Goy d'Alès Belonne 1429: Gouy 1613: Gouy-en-Ostrevant 1789: Gouy-sous-Bellonne (unchanged since)

http://www.gouysousbellonne.fr/iso_album/ethymologie.pdf

Curator (dvb) note: since the patronymic name “Gouy” was not in use until 1346 it is genealogically incorrect to use the surname “de Gouy”

Raoul I st of Vexin

Raoul I er Gouy , who died in 926 , was Count of Vexin , Amiens and Valois . He is the son of a Heilwis or Helvide Friuli , who remarried second wife to Count Roger I st of Laon.

Raoul II de VexinView and edit data on Wikidata edit - edit code - edit WikidataModel documentation He then married around 924 Hildegarde, heiress of counts Ermenfroi and Gozdert, and probable daughter of the first. These two counts owned the counties of Amiens, Valois and Vexin. Édouard de Saint-Phalle thinks that Ermenfroi owned the three counties, but Pierre Baudin indicates that it is rather Raoul who regrouped the three counties. In any case, it is certain that he acquired them through his wife.

From Hildegarde he had:

Raoul II , killed in 943, count of Vexin, Amiens and Valois probably Gautier , who would also become Count of Vexin, Amiens and Valois. It was long thought that Gautier was the son of Raoul II for chronological reasons, but it has been shown that the widow of Raoul II had no children, and Gautier is now considered to be a very young brother of Raoul. II. An uncertain parentage Edit

He is traditionally considered to be the son of Hucbald de Gouy , Count of Ostrevent , and Heilwis of Frioul. This relationship is based on the identification of Heilwis, the widow who remarried Roger I st of Laon , with Heilwis Friuli, woman Hucbald Gouy. But this identification poses chronological problems which make it improbable.

Another hypothesis has been put forward: Helwis, wife of Roger de Laon, would be the daughter of Hucbald de Gouy and Heilwis de Frioul. Her first husband would be Gautier de Laon , which would explain the appearance of the first name of Gautier among the counts of Vexin.

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From fmgMedlands

COMTES d’OSTREVENT

The county of Ostrevent originally formed part of the pagus Atrebatensis. It was bound to the north by the river Scarpe, and to the east and south by the rivers Escaut and Sensée[580]. It lay east of Douai and west of Valenciennes, within the territory of the west Frankish kingdom. It is not known who governed the county after the death of Raoul [II] in 944 until the late 11th century when it was held by the seigneurs de Ribemont, who were also châtelains de Valenciennes.

Two siblings, parents not known: 1. HUCBALD, son of --- (-after 890). Comte [d'Ostrevent]. m [as her first husband,] HEILWIG [of Friulia], daughter of EBERHARD Duke of the March of Friulia [Unruochingi] & his wife Gisela [Carolingian]. The primary source which confirms her name has not been identified. This marriage is confirmed by Flodoard’s Historia Remensis Ecclesiæ which names “Hucboldus...sororis...Rodulfi maritus”[581]. The Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines names "Hucbaldus de Hainacq" as "huius [=abbas Rodulfus] sororius"[582]. The information appears to be corroborated by a later passage in the same source which records that "comes Rodulfus" (referring to Heilwig's grandson) was "nepos…ex sorore" of Louis IV King of France[583]. It appears chronologically unlikely for any of King Louis's sisters, whose dates of birth can be estimated to [908/17], to have been the mother of Raoul [II] who was killed in battle in 944, presumably when he was already adult. It appears more likely that the family relationship was one generation further back, and that a member of the Unruochingi family, descended from the sister of Charles II "le Chauve" King of the West Franks and who originated in the same area in northern France, would provide a good match. She maybe married secondly (after 890) Roger [I] Comte de Laon. Her supposed second marriage is shown in Europäische Stammtafeln[584]. The primary source on which this is based has not been identified and from a chronological point of view it seems unlikely to be correct. Another table in Europäische Stammtafeln only names the wife of Comte Roger as "Helvide" but does not give her origin[585]. Comte Hucbald & his wife had one child:

a) RAOUL [I] (-926). The primary source which confirms his parentage has not been identified. Flodoard records that Hugues "le Grand" excluded "terra filiorum Balduini, Rodulfi quoque de Gaugeio atque Hilgaudi" from a treaty made with the Normans in 925[586], which may refer to this Raoul. Vanderkindere suggests that "Gaugeium" was Gouy-sous-Bellone, in the area of Ostrevent, not Gouy-en-Arrouaise which is near Cambrai[587]. Flodoard records the death of "Rodulfus comes, filius Heilwidis" and "non multo post etiam Rotgarius, vitricus eius, comes Laudunensis pagi" in 926[588]. m ---. The identity of the wife of Raoul [I] is uncertain. The Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines records that "comes Rodulfus" (referring to Raoul [II]%29 was "nepos…ex sorore" of Louis IV King of France[589]. It appears chronologically unlikely for any of King Louis's sisters, whose dates of birth can be estimated to [908/17], to have been the mother of Raoul [II] who was killed in battle in 944, presumably when he was already adult. It appears more likely that the family relationship was one generation further back, and that a member of the Unruochingi family, descended from the sister of Charles II "le Chauve" King of the West Franks and who originated in the same area in northern France, would provide a good match. Nevertheless, the earlier primary source on which Alberic based his information has not been identified and it is possible that the source is inaccurate in its report. However, the poem Raoul de Cambrai states that "Raoul Taillefer" married "Aalais", sister of King Louis IV[590] which, if correct, would mean that his wife could be identified with Adelais, daughter of Charles III "le Simple" King of the West Franks & his first wife Frederuna ([908/16]-). This would mean that Raoul [II] was an infant when his father died (in fact the poem suggests that he was born posthumously). It would also mean that Raoul [I] and his wife were closely related, as the Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines also implies that Raoul's mother was the daughter of Adelais's paternal great aunt Gisela who married Eberhard, ancestor of the Marchesi of Friulia (see above). The poem Raoul de Cambrai cannot claim to be historically accurate. Nevertheless, it is not impossible that the detail of Raoul's marriage was not fabricated. Comte Raoul [I] & his wife had [two] children:

i) RAOUL [II] (-killed in battle 944). Flodoard records that "Rodulfum filium Rodulfi de Gaugliaco" attempted to invade Vermandois in 943, during the course of which he was killed[591]. Comte de Valois, d'Amiens et du Vexin. Comte de Crépy: he built the fortress of Crépy before 943. The Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines records that "Radulfum Cameracensem comitem" invaded Vermandois, adding that he was "nepos…ex sorore" of Louis IV King of France[592], although the earlier source on which this last piece of information is based has not been identified. The History of Waulsort monastery records that "Cameracensis comes Rodulfus…regalis consanguinitatis" invaded the territory of "quatuor Heriberti filios" with the consent of "rege Francorum…avunculo suo" but was expulsed[593], but this confuses Raoul [II] with Raoul, son of Baudouin I Count of Flanders. m as her first husband, LIEGARDIS Ctss de Meulan et de Mantes, daughter of --- (-12 Nov [990/91]). "Liutgarde veuve du comte Raoul" donated property to Saint-Cyr de Nevers by charter dated Oct 947[594]. She married (after Oct 947) secondly Galéran Comte de Meulan. The primary source which confirms her second marriage has not been identified.

ii) [GAUTHIER [I] (-after 987). Edouard de Saint-Phalle suggests that Gauthier [I] Comte d'Amiens, de Valois et du Vexin was the second son of Raoul [I][595].] - COMTES de VALOIS.]

2. [BERTHE] . Flodoard names "domnus Heriveus" as "nepos ex sorore Hucbaldi comitis" when recording his appointment as Archbishop of Reims[596]. Colwener’s Catalogue des Archevesques de Rheims names “Heriveus canonis Remensis filius Ursi comitis Campaniæ et Bertæ sororis Hucbaldi comitis” when recording his ecclesiastical career, but does not specify the primary source on which Hérivé’s stated parentage is based[597]. m [URSON Comte en Champagne, son of ---.] - SEIGNEURS de CHÂTILLON-sur-MARNE.

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Older data

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From http://www.rpi.edu/~holmes/Hobbies/Genealogy/ps06/ps06_373.htm

Raoul was Count of Ostrevant and Amiens and of Valois and the Vexin. For a discussion of his parentage, see "Ancestral Roots..." (Balt., 7th ed., line 250).

possible wife: Hildegarde of Flanders daughter of Arnulf (The Elder) I

References: [RFC],[AR7]

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From http://www.rpi.edu/~holmes/Hobbies/Genealogy/ps09/ps09_499.htm

Per Weis' "Ancestral Roots. . ." (250:17): "Count of Ostrevant and Amiens, and of Valois,and the Vexin, d.936 (his mother was a Heliwich, very doubtful if identical with No.16 [i.e. Helwise, d.895, dau. of EBERHARD, MARGRAVE OF FRIULI and wife of Hucbold, Count of Osrevant].); m. ELDEGARDE, (dau, or niece of Ermenfroi, Count of Amiens?, prob. a Carolingian princess), who m. (2) Waleran, a count who has been misidentified as father of No. 18 [i.e. WALTER I]"

A lengthy footnote following Weis' line # 250 explains in detail the combination of things which must be proven as true for Raoul to be the grandson of EBERHARD MARGRAVE OF FRIULI (RIN 1441). Todate, this proof seems highly unlikely.

The same footnote states that "David K. Kelly, from his studies (soon to be published) thinks it more likely that Raoul's father was COUNT THEODORIC, prob. of Valois, Vexin, pos. of Amiens, who was of the male line of CHILDEBRAND (RIN 1244), germanus of KARL MARTEL. COUNT THEODORIC, the Nibelung DID have a son, Count Radulph, prob. of Valois, who could well be this Raoul."

References: [AR7],[RFC]

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Raoul 1er de Laon, comte de Laon et de Senlis, comte de Vexin, Amiens et Valois's Timeline

873
873
Vexin français, bounded by the rivers Epte, Oise and Seine, which remained part of the Île-de-France province, France
915
915
Cambrai, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, France
919
919
Valois now Oise, Picardy, France
926
926
Age 53
Valois, Oise, Picardy, France
????
Count of Valois