John Rice of Dedham Ancestry

Background

The English origins of immigrant John Rice, of Dedham, Massachusetts, have never been identified. Geni user Dale Rice has a family tradition that John Rice was a descendant of the Tudor dynasty. This project explores that tradition and attempts to identify sources that would prove the ancestry of John Rice.

Biographical Summary

The first confirmed record of John Rice was his 1649 marriage to Ann Hackly in Dedham, Massachusetts. Assuming this marriage was his first, he was probably born about 1624 or 1625, either in England or Massachusetts. (According to Albion's Seed, the average age at first marriage for men at Dedham between 1640 and 1690 was 25.5, and for women 22.5.

He was admitted as a freeman at Dedham in 1651. A freeman was a full citizen of the colony, with the right to vote in town meetings. A freeman had to be 21 years of age or more, certainly a male, and not an indentured servant or bonded man. He had to own property, belong to the church, and take the freeman's oath. John Rice was admitted in 1651, so he cannot have been born later than 1630.

John Rice was probably living at Dedham several years before his marriage. Because of his age and because there is no earlier record for him, it is likely he came to Dedham (founded in 1636) as a step-son, foster-son, indentured servant, or apprentice of one of the earlier settlers.

Key Figures in the Search

• Rev. John Allin, of Norfolk & Dedham (1597-1671), the first minister at Dedham, Massachusetts.
• Ann Hackly (c. 1628-1683), wife of immigrant John Rice.
• Trader John Hughes. Some researchers believe his surname was Rice or Rees. Legend says he married Nicketti, daughter of Powhatan and sister of Pocahonats.
• Sir John Perrot (1528-1592), Lord Deputy of Ireland. Alleged to be the illegitimate son of Henry VIII, but the connection is doubtful.
• John Perott "the Quaker (c1572-1675). An immigrant to the West Indies. He might have been a descendant of Sir John Perrot through an illegitimate line. Currently (March 2014) suggested by Dale Rice as the father of John Rice, of Dedham.
• Priscilla (not Margaret) Littleton (c. 1600-after 1662), wife of Perrot ap Rice.
• Edmund Rice (c. 1594-1663), an early immigrant to Massachusetts. He was formerly thought to be the father of John Rice, but DNA testing has shown that the two men were only distantly related.
• John Rice (c. 1624-1686), an early immigrant to Dedham, Massachusetts. He is first named in the Dedham records in 1649 when he married Ann Hackly
• Perrot ap Rice (c. 1595 - before 1650), of Tenby. Formerly suggested by Dale Rice as father of John Rice, of Dedham. Currently suggested by Dale Rice as an illegitimate half-brother of John Rice.
• William Rice, MP (before 1522-1588). He was a Gentleman of the Privy Chamber under Mary I and was granted arms in 1555. He is said to have been a descendant (son or grandson) of Rhys ap Griffith FitzUryan, but no evidence has been discovered. He left no descendants.

DNA Evidence

DNA tests on the descendants of John Rice show that they belong to Haplogroup I1. Three descendants have been tested. They match one another, so we can infer that their results show the yDNA of John Rice.

Approximately 14% of English men belong to Haplogroup I1. This haplogroup is thought to have originated in Scandinavia, perhaps in Denmark, about five or six thousand years ago. In England it is most strongly represented in the North Midlands and East Anglia. These are areas that seem to have had the greatest concentration of Scandinavian settlement from the Anglo-Saxons, Danes, and Normans.

The Edmund Rice and John Rice families both belong to Haplogroup I1. The descendants of John Rice match the descendants of Edmund Rice at 20 markers out of 25. Close, but not close enough to be the same family. A match at this level is consistent with two families from the same general area having a common ancestor around the time surnames were being adopted.

The yDNA signature of John Rice is also broadly similar to other families in the North Midlands and East Anglia.

Possible English Homes of John Rice

We know from books like Albion's Seed that eastern England (Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex) was a major source of immigration to New England in the early 1600s. It was particularly the seedbed of the Puritan elite.

Edmund Rice is known to have lived in this area before coming to America (Berkhamsted, Hertfordshire, and perhaps Stanstead, Suffolk). We don't know exactly where John Rice was born, but probably somewhere in this area.

These details, combined with the DNA evidence, make it likely that John Rice belonged to a family with roots in eastern England.

Hinckley, Leicestershire

There was a Rice family at Hinckley. The yDNA signature of John Rice descendants matches, broadly speaking, many other families in this area. The Rice family in Hinckley has not been tested for yDNA, so it is unknown whether there is match to John Rice's descendants.

An Ann Juchley, perhaps identical with Ann Hackly, the wife of John Rice, of Dedham, was christened 1627 in Hinckley.

Moses Cleveland (1620-1702), immigrant to Woburn, Massachusetts belonged to a family from Hinckley, Leicestershire, and came to America from Ipswich, Suffolk.

Glemsford, Suffolk

Stanstead was the possible home of the Edmund Rice family. Glemsford, one mile distant, was the home of another Rice family. The close DNA mismatch between the descendants of John Rice and Edmund Rice suggests that the two men might have belonged to a family related in the more distant past.

Ipswich, Suffolk

Ipswich was the main center for Puritan migration to the Massachusetts Bay Colony. There is only one Rice named in the parish records at the relevant time, a Thomas Rice, born 1626 in Ipswich, son of Thomas Rice.

Tenby, Pembrokshire

Tenby was the home of an ap Rice family that descendant Dale Rice believes was the family of immigrant John Rice.

Disconnecting Edmund Rice

The Edmund Rice Association (ERA) has rejected (1) the claim that Edmund Rice's ancestry is known, and (2) the relationship between Edmund Rice and John Rice.

Many generations of John Rice descendants believed John Rice, of Dedham was a son of Edmund Rice, of Marlborough. There is no proof John was son of Edmund, but the two men appear in Massachusetts and the dating makes it plausible they were related. However, DNA testing on the descendants of John and Edmund shows they were not closely related.

Because the two men were thought to be father and son, there is much misinformation about John Rice. For example, John Rice is sometimes said to have royal descent. This claim originated with Edmund Rice and has been transferred to John.

Ancestry of Edmund Rice

Probably, Edmund Rice was the man of that name who lived at Stanstead, Suffolk. However, in 1992 Reg Rice reported finding a conjunction of King, Parmenter, and Rose families in Polstead, Suffolk:

• Joan Parmenter, born 5 December 1585, daughter of Richard
• Will King, born 26 October 1595, son of John (who married Joan Fox in 1571)
• Edmund Rose, born 22 December 1585, son of Tho.

King and Parmenter families appear in Sudbury, Massachusetts as associates of Edmund Rice, although it is not clear they are Polstead families of the same name. Thomas King was one of 13 petitioners with Edmund Rice in 1656; he was one of three who took the inventory Edmund Rice, and three of Edmund's children married into the King family.

Source: Edmund Rice (1638) Association Newsletter 58(Winter 1992), 19.

Legend of Royal Ancestry

The ancestry once claimed for Edmund Rice is set out in By the Name of Rice by Charles Elmer Rice (1911):

An illuminated pedigree of the family of Rice in the possession of Lord Dynevor, drawn and attested in the year 1600 by Ralph Brooke, York Herald, and continued by different hands to the present time, makes Sir Rhys Ap-Thomas Fitz-Urian, K. G., to be eighteenth in paternal descent from Vryan Reged, Lord of Kidwelly, Carunllon and Yakenen, in South Wales and Margaret Le-Faye, his wife, daughter of Gorlois Duke of Cornwall. Sir Rhys Ap-Thomas, 19th. in descent from Gorlois, was the founder of the English house of Rice. ¶ Of this distinguished person, Fuller, in his “Worthies,” writes: Sir Rhys Ap-Thomas of Elmalin in Carmarthanshire [sic], was never more than a knight, yet little less than a Prince in his native country [emphasis added].
¶ To King Henry VII., on his landing with a small force at Milford Haven, Sir Rhys repaired with a considerable accession of choice soldiers, marching with them to Bosworth field, where he right valiantly behaved himself. That thrifty King, afterwards made him a Knight of the order and well might he have given him a garter, by whose effectual help he had received a crown.”
At the Battle of Bosworth, however, Henry made him a Knight Banneret, and in the 21st. year of that King’s reign he was elected a Knight companion of the most noble order of the Garter. In the next reign he was Captain of the Light Horse at the Battle of Therouenne [sic], and at the siege of Tourney [sic], in 1513. ¶ Sir Rhys was the son of Thomas Ap-Griffith and his wife, the daughter and heir of Sir John Griffith, of Abermarlais. (The second wife, and mother of the bothers of Sir Rhys, was Elizabeth, daughter of Philip Duke of Burgundy.) ¶ Sir Griffith Rice, son and heir of Sir Rhys Ap-Thomas, was made a Knight of the Bath at the marriage of Arthur, Prince of Wales, in 1501. To William Rice, of Bohmer, in Buckinghamshire, a grandson of Sir Griffith, a coat of arms was granted in the 2nd. year of Philip and Mary, May 1555. This William Rice was in the 22nd. generation from Gorlois, Duke of Cornwall and 21st. in the male line from Vryan Reged, Lord of Kidwelly. The 9th. in descent from Sir Griffith Rice is the present Lord Dynevor (Rice, 9-10).
Deacon Edmund Rice was modestly descended from Sir Griffith Rice, Knight of the Bath, (1501) being his great great grandson, and was therefore 24th. in descent from the Duke of Cornwall, and 23d. in the male line from Vryan Reged (Rice, 12).

In short, the claim is:

1. Urien Rheged, married a daughter of Gorlois, ancestor of
2. Thomas ap Griffith, father of
3. Sir Rys ap Thomas, Knight of the Garter, supported Henry VII, father of
4. Sir Griffith Rice, Knight of the Bath 1501, father of
5. Rice ap Griffith born 1500, married Katherine Howard, father of
6. William Rice, of Boemer, granted arms 1555, father of
7. Thomas Rice, father of
8. Edmund and Robert (twins), born 1594
9. John Rice, of Dedham.

This information must be treated with extreme caution. The Forward to the same book admits, “There is a very grave doubt that our family can claim relationship to Royalty, since painstaking work has never uncovered the record of the birth of Edmund Rice nor any facts that would indicate his parentage.” (Rice, 7).

A fanciful element is noticeable in the connection to Gorlois. He was the first husband of Ygerne, the mother of King Arthur.

A major stumbling block to the above line of descent is William Rice, of Boemer. There is no place named Boemer in Buckinghamshire. The man who was granted arms in 1555 received other manors from Mary I, but his ancestry is unknown. He had no descendants. And, if he were the grandson of a knight of the Bath and a great grandson of a knight of the Garter he would not have needed a grant of arms. He would have had them already. Even if he were an illegitimate son, by Welsh custom he would nevertheless have inherited the arms of his ancestor.

In fact, there seems to be no tradition of Edmund Rice's ancestry prior to the publication of By the Name of Rice. Andrew Ward's 1858 A Genealogical History of the Rice Family says, "Of his [Edmund Rice's] pedigree, we have no information, nor have we any in regard to him prior to the year 1627, when he with his family was living at Berkhamstead, in the County of Hertfordshire in England; he continued to live there several years and came to America as early as 1638." (Ward, iv-v)

ap Rice Family, of Tenby

The descent from Sir Rys ap Thomas will not work for Edmund Rice, but Geni user Dale Rice tried to make it work by re-routing the descent of John Rice, of Dedham through the ap Rice family, of Tenby.

An article on the Tenby family says, "David ap Rhys, a natural son of the illustrious Sir Rhys ap Thomas, K.G., of Dynevor, by a daughter of Gwilym ap Harry ap Gwilym Fychan, a landowner of Court Henry in Llangathen, Carmarthenshire. On his father's side Sir Rhys came from distinguished lineage tracing to the British prince Urien Rheged, and through his mother descended from the same stock as the Tudor dynasty. Henry VII owed much of his fortune at Bosworth to the partisanship of Sir Rhys whom he loaded with honours and appointments, while his son, Henry VIII continued to extend friendship and favour to "good father Rhys" as he termed him. Owing to his enthusiasm for unconventional dalliance, Sir Rhys became father of a considerable number of natural children most of whom found no difficulty in marrying aristocratic wives and founding families of their own. Among these was David ap Rhys." (Jones, 20)

The line at Tenby (Scotsborough and Ricketson) continued down to Perrot ap Rice, who died in his father's lifetime, before 1650.

Theories of Dale Rice

Geni user Dale Rice has a family tradition that John Rice was a male-line descendant of Henry VIII. This tradition has many parallels to the ancestry formerly attributed to Edmund Rice. For example, ""Like a Prince but not a Prince" is almost a direct quote from the 1911 Rice genealogy, that Sir Rhys ap Thomas "was never more than a knight, yet little less than a Prince in his native country".

Dale Rice's theory has evolved through time. In the current version (March 2014), John Perrot "the Quaker" was father of both John Rice, of Dedham (by Margaret Littleton) and also of Perrott ap Rice, of Tenby (by Margaret Mercer).

This replaces an earlier theory that John Rice, of Dedham was the illegitimate son of Perrot ap Rice by Tamzin, the wife of Edmund Rice; that Perrot ap Rice was the illegitimate son of an earlier Sir John Perrot; that John Perrot was the illegitimate son of Henry VIII; and that the Tudors were illegitimate descendants of the Plantagenets.

• Geni discussion 1 "John Rice"
• Geni discussion 2 "Hunting William the Conqueror's DNA"
• Geni discussion 3 "Rice Pudding"
• Geni discussion 4 "John Rice, of Dedham"
• Geni discussion 5 "Role of Inductive Logic"
• Encyclpedia of Virginia discussion
• Familypedia profile
• Familypedia discussion
• GenForum discussion
• Oljohn discussion
• Origin Hunters discussion

English Candidates for John Rice, of Dedham

John Rice, of Glemsford

John Rice, of Glemsford, putative nephew of Edmund Rice. Edmund Rice's ancestry is officially unknown but he is thought to have been the Edmund Rice, born about 1594 at Stanstead (Suffolk). His wife Thomasine Frost was the sister of the Elizabeth Frost who married Henry Rice, of Stanstead. The Edmund Rice Association accepts the identification as possible but unproven.

A mile away (in Glemsford) were two other Rices — Margaret (married Ambrose Wyatt) and John Rice, of Glemsford (married Katherine Wyatt). This Margaret and John were perhaps siblings (or cousins) of Edmund and Henry.

John Rice and Katherine Wyatt had a son John Rice, born in 1620. If this Edmund of Stanstead was the immigrant Deacon Edmund, and if this John was John of Dedham, then John of Dedham was a nephew or cousin (not son) of Deacon Edmund. The ERA's operating assumption seems to be that John of Dedham was John born 1620. The dates work, and this John could reasonably have have come to New England through his connection with Edmund Rice.

The problem is that the DNA doesn't quite work. John of Dedham comes close to Deacon Edmund, but not close enough. Likely, they had a distant common ancestor but were not immediate relatives.

If (and this is a big if) we allow for the possibility that John Rice 1620 was not the biological son of his supposed father John, then we would have a direct link to a second possibility for John of Dedham. We could add this John 1620 to our list of candidates, to stand alongside the John 1630.

What the ERA is not willing to accept is that their ancestor Edmund is necessarily this Edmund Rice, and even if he is, that John 1620 was his nephew. They don't like resorting to a "non-paternal" event to explain the DNA.

ARGUMENT:
There is no reason to believe Edmund & John knew each other. They traveled in very different circles in America. Edmund was only a religious opportunist, and there is no reason to think John was anything but a good church going Puritan. Or there would be a record.

COUNTERARGUMENT: I'm not particularly persuaded by the objection that they moved in different circles. I think it's fairly easy to imagine that a nephew might be stricter and more "more Puritan" than his uncle. They might not even have come to America at the same time, but still both come to America as part of the same broad movement.

John Ries, of Mistley

John Ries, of Mistley
There was a John Ries, christened 31 January 1629 in Mistley, Essex, son of John Ries and Rachell. This couple had other children at Mistley.

The interesting thing about Mistley is that it's only 4.7 miles from Dedham. It's easy to imagine that young John Ries / Rice, of Mistley would have heard the fiery preaching of John Rogers and might have been prompted to move with others in the area to Dedham, Mass. It's also interesting to note that Matthew Hopkins, England's famous witch hunter, came from Mistley.

If it turned out that this John Ries was the John Rice, of Dedham, then he would have been about the right age — almost 21 — when he married Ann Hackly. And, we can notice in passing that John Rice, of Dedham, Mass. had a daughter Rachel, which was the name of this John Ries' mother.

Elizabeth Disborough (Shepherd) was born in Mistley in 1621 (8 years before John Reis). Her husband Thwaite Strickland was one of the original settlers of Dedham, Massachusetts. She was received into the church at Dedham, Massachusetts in 1650 as a married woman, just a year after John Rice was married there.

Elizabeth left Dedham and ultimately settled in Connecticut. So did two of John Rice's children. This is part of a general migration pattern for the area, so we don't want to make too much of it, but it reinforces the possibility of a connection.

All of this still isn't proof of anything. It's just circumstantial evidence. All it means is that there was a family at Dedham, Mass. that had a "neighbor" back in England with the named John Rice. Could it be the same John Rice? Maybe. I'd want to see more connections between the two. In the best of all worlds there would turn out to be an English will from the Shepherds or Rices in this area that names a member of the other family.

There was also another couple at Mistley, John Rice and Francis Holmsted who were having children in this period, but there is no record they had a son John.

John Rice, of North Walsham

John Rice, of North Walsham, was born 1630 in North Walsham, illegitimate son of Margaret Rice. North Walsham was near the home of Rev. John Allin, the first minister at Dedham, who attended school at North Walsham. It seems plausible that this John Rice was personally acquainted with Rev. Allin.

Dale Rice believes this record is John of Dedham, and that his mother Margaret Rice was Margaret LIttleton, wife of Perrot ap Rice. However, this John Rice remained in North Walsham. He married a woman named Mary and had children at North Walsham between 1665 and 1675.

John Rice, of Northam

John Rice, of Northam was born 1624 in Northam, son of John Rice and Johane Sanders. Northam is a bit less than 10 miles from the birthplace of the Agnes Rice whose daughter Hannah Phillips, an early settler at Dedham, Massachusetts. See the Rice Families of Devon Project for more information.

Hypothetical Brother of Thomas Rice, of Ipswich

Hypothetical Brother of Thomas Rice. Thomas Rice was christened at St. NIcholas, Ipswich, Suffolk in 1626, son of another Thomas Rice. This is the only record of a Rice family at Ipswich, which was a center for Puritan migration to the Massachusetts Bay Colony. This family probably came from elsewhere in England or probably went elsewhere, perhaps to Massachusetts. This Thomas might have been a relative of Thomas Rice, of Kittery.

Member of the White family at Glemsford

Ambrose Wyatt and Thomas Wyatt were apparently brothers of the Katherine Wyatt who married John Rice, of Glemsford. The surname Wyatt is also spelled White and Witt.

The DNA signature of John Rice, of Dedham has its closest match with a White family in Tennessee. At a stretch, it would be possible that John Rice was a member of the White family at Glemsford, and adopted the surname Rice from an illegitimacy, through a step-father, or through foster parents.

Resources

• Charles Elmer Rice, By the Name of Rice (1911).
• Edward Laws & Emily Hewlett Edwards, Church Book of St. Mary the Virgin, Tenby (1907).
• Dedham Historical Register Jan 1898. "John Rice of Dedham."
• Early Dedham Families
• James Savage, A Genealogical Dictionary of the First Settlers, Boston, MA: Little, Brown & Co. (1862), Volume 1, p 252.
• Andrew Henshaw Ward, [A Genealogical History of the Rice Family: Descendants of Deacon Edmund Rice ... (1858).
• A Genealogical Register of the First Settlers of New England: ... To which are Added Various Genealogical and Biographical Notes, Collected from Ancient Records, Manuscripts, and Printed Works (Google eBook) John Farmer. Carter, Andrews & Company, 1829 - New England - 351 pages. Page 242. "Rice."
• Andrew Henshaw Ward, A Genealogical History of the Rice Family: Descendants of Deacon Edmund Rice, who Came from Berkhamstead, England and Settled at Sudbury, Massachusetts, in 1638 or 9, (1858).
• The pioneers of Massachusetts a descriptive list, drawn from records of the colonies, towns and churches and other contemporaneous documents. By Charles Henry Pope. Published 1900 by C.H. Pope in Boston. Written in English. Page 383. "Rice, Rise, Ryce, Ryse."
• Perrott's of England & Wales, a genealogical miscellanea.
• Perrott Families (pdf), a genealogical miscellanea.
• Donald Lines Jacobus,"Pre-American Ancestries IX. Edmund Rice of Sudbury, Mass.* in The American Genealogist X(1936), 133. A photocopy of this article has also been upload to Geni: Edmund Rice. Note: a critique containing many factual errors appears at GenForum: Steven Bird, " Re: Rhys Ap Thomas/Katherine Howard, NOT!", Aug. 23, 2000.
• The record of births, marriages and deaths, and intentions of marriage, in the town of Dedham ... With an appendix containing records of marriages before 1800, returned from other towns, under the statute of 1857. 1635-1845 .., Volume 1
• Francis Jones (Wales Herald Extraordinary), "Rickeston and Scotsborough: A study in family history" in The Pembrokeshire Historian No. 2 (1966), pp. 19-47.
• Rice Family Y-DNA Project: haplotypes table Last updated: 2013 Sep 18
• "Rice Families in England" in Your Rice Family E~Zine, Vol. 4, No. 2-3 (Feb. 24, 2011).
• Welsh Medieval Database Primarily of Nobility and Gentry, extracted from Peter Bartram's Welsh Genealogies.
• Wikipedia - Dedham, Massachusetts
• Additional sources cited at Edmund Rice, Wikitree.

Discussion by Dale Rice

Margaret Mercer

According to Pembrokshire history on line: William Mercer 1534 M Alice Hensdale 1538-1598 and their only child was JOhn MERCER 1568... ..see pages 20-24 of webjournals.llgd-id1041698.

Margaret Mercer ca 1580 or 1578 is a person of unknown Paternity. (comment: her father is identified in multiple sources as William Mercer, Esq., of Lancashire. See "sources" tab for details).

The Coats of Arms carved into the Panel on the tomb include the shields of : ap Rice: Martin: Bateman: Roche: Valens: deVere: Mercer and a spanish surname..possibly Ayalla.....These names have a distinctly French background and DNA test results for Perrott ap Rice believed to be father of my 7th great grandfather are also considered to be from Northern France/Denmark...The name Perrott ap Rice is also a French derivation. DCR (comment: The coats of arms carved into the panel of Margaret's tomb are those of her husband's family: Ap Rees, Martin of Cemmaes, Marles of Marloes, Batman of Honeyborough, Perrot of Scotsborough, Verney (?), Levelance (?), and Roche. These are all local Welsh families.)

John Perrott, II

John Parrott II was the son of Sir JOhn Perrott ca 1525 and Syble Berkley Johns. She was 1/2 sister to Elizabeth Berkley Rice. (comment: Sybil Jones was not a half sister of Elizabeth Berkeley.) The child born by Elizabeth prior to marriage was named Margaret Rice Warren, aka possibly Margaret Mercer 1580 placed in the household of Wm. and Johanna Mercer of Pembrokshire. The story of the 1/2 sisters (BERKLEY) came down Aurally from Samuel G. RICE to his son Dale C. RICE and the investigation is not yet completed, but the DNA matches for John RICE 1624 and Perrott II sons and the EDWARDES lines are all proved to be I-1 Haplogroup and 25/25 match with SC born Wm DAVIS 1550. a locale visited by Perrott II on the trade routes he followed in Jamaca and BARBADOS. The above information should be treated as likely, but not PROVED as there is no Baptismal paperwork yet found. DCR1948

Perrot ap Rice

Perrott ap Rice was a very real person of standing and wealth in Tenby, Wales. The family seat at nearby Carew Castle had been held for hundreds of years by the Family of Sir Rhys ap Thomas and the Perrott's. Sir John Perrott's mother, Mary Berkley, had an encounter with the soverign Henry Tudor and Sir John Perrott (1527) ended up with the Castle formerly occupied by Sir Rhys ap Thomas and his grandson.
The family had fabulous wealth in lands and once the last heir was executed in 1531 on Tower Hill for conspiracy against the King the Estate at Carew escheated back to the crown and Sir John Perrott became the owner. Thomas ap Rice 1570 inherits lands from father John Rice II....and his eldest son, Perrott ap Rice ca 1600 is declaired dead by 1641. Thus the grand son James ap Rice inherits the lands from Grandfather Thomas ap Rice. Perrot's wife, Margaret Littleton, has to sue in court to recieve her Widow's share to get them.

Perrot's son James is of age by 1650 and receives his father's lands as the sole heir who can do, since his Uncle Captain John Rice died in service to the King's Army. And Wife, Margaret Littleton sued in court to receive her Widows share, never remarried. James's son ,James ap Rice, took over the estates and properties about 1700 and had to sell them to a local business person named RICKSON to clear the debts and mortgages in 1710....The last known report of James ap Rice born1675 was a tanner by that name who was assessed a fee on 3 hearths for his home and was listed as the collector of the Lay Subsidy Tax.....last known record is 1712 ca when his name disappears from Pembrokshire records....and we assume he emigrated to the Virginia Colony., but that is not known for certain.

The Perrott ap Rice we are trying to understand was born 75 years after his famous grandfather Sir John Perrott 1527, and sir John's 2md cousin, Katherine Perrott, married John Rice II 1540 of Rickerson, their children included Perrott's father Thomas ap Rice born 1570, and seven other children. However, before Thomas ap Rice Died 1650, his son Perrott disappeared just prior to the outbreak of the English Civil War, 1640. He left Oweing a huge personal debt that did not encumber the lands of his father, because Perrott faked his own death and left for America to begin life anew as John Rice. Doccuments created by his cousin, Sheriff of Pembrokshire, William Barlow show he was dead, but there is no grave, and no marker in Wales.

The aural History of my family indicates he had a 14 year old son by a woman identified as TAMZIN ....and since John Rice 1624 was from the same area as Thomasine and EDMUND Rice it is not too far a stretch to understand that when Tamzine and Edmund left for The Plantation of Masacheuttes 1638, they left John Rice behind or he was not related to them....The behavior of Perrott says he was related to John Rice 1624 because somehow a 14 year old got to Sudburry , Ma. by early OCt. 1641-2 and settled in the Framingham, an out lying PURITAN community most westward of Sudburry....Where he worked faithfully to join the Puritan community and won the hand of Native Born Anne Hackley of Dedham Sept 27, 1649. Perrott ap Rice aka, John Rice 1600 , is not known in those parts after the brief appearance in 1642 but family documents say the Rice Brother's Emigrated to NewYOrk where they homsteaded in the Katskill Mountains, in Indian territory....

I have found records of Early Settlers on the the James River with the name John Price and a Rice Hughes 1652, brought a younger brother over to help with the tading no doubt. That would be Perrott's youngest son by Margaret Littleton-Rice born 1637 three years before he left for the New World and his $1.3 Million dollars of personal debt behind....uncollected because his father Thomas was still alive and not part of the Debt. We are looking for any descendents of John Rice Hughes the Trader for DNA comparrison. Dale C. Rice 1948 Nebraska Rices.

John ap Rice

John ap Rice II 1540 is the second son named John born to William ap Rice ca 1475 and his first wife Elizabeth /Bateman, He is known to have married the Heiress, Katherine Perrott of Scottsborogh....one may see his pedigree on the Monument to his son's Thomas ap Rice1570 wife, Margaret Mercer1580 a large beautifuuly carved monument at St. Mary The Virgin Church in TENBY Wales, the family seat near Carew Castle....William ap Rice 1475 & his wife, Elizabeth Bateman are named as are the descendant family's which include Alswyn Martin....Mother of William Rice, Daffid ap Rice and many other notables on the monument inside the ST. Mary's Church such as: Mercer, ap Rhys, Roach, PERROTT,and six others have their peer coats of ARMS carved on the monument.... of Margaret Mercer reclining on two pillows wtih the right hand under her cheek....Margaret died in Child birth and bore Thomas ap Rice son of John II Rice, 10 children in 12 years 7 of which lived. Perrott ap Rice 1600 is My 7th Great Grandfather and is the Father of JOhn RICE 1624 of East Anglia, England, Proved by DNA of Dale C. RICE 1948 of Nebraska. family traces is lineage to, Perrott ap Rice of Tenby Wales, and who faked his own DEATH to Deliver his son Back to his mother, TAMZIN. Perrott took the name of his deceased brother: Captain John Rice and set up a trading post on the James River near Otter Laker Virginia in Indian Territory.

SPECULATIVE: [I] BELIEVE His Companion was NECOTOWANASEE (SHE WHO SWEEPS DEW FROM THE FLOWERS) HE IS COMMONLY KNOWN AS TRADER JOHN RICE HUGHES IN THOSE PARTS.

Margaret Mercer 1580, Perrott ap Rice's Mother is Descended from William Mercer: DCR 1948