Catharina Mare - Is this Ignace's sister or his daughter?

There were 4 entries in the timeline - christened on c. 1686 with the same information - with no source. Probably loaded with Gedcoms in the early days.

Date: 1686
Place: Ardennes, Montherme, France
Location: Ardennes, Montherme, France

I have removed all but 1

This does suggest that he was born in France?

Sorry, deleting above. The discussion needs to be had on who Gerrit Janse van Vuuren marries in 1738 if there is no Catherina Mare ii.

I've started a template for all of us to work on on this project: http://www.geni.com/projects/Mare-Maree-Family-of-South-Africa/12631 (added all of you as collaborators, so need you to go and check that you think I'm getting it right)

June, you're finding the best stuff of all - Can you put all of it on that project page, so we've got it for posterity.

June, I think Jansi's initial query also came from using the FFYP info:

But I'm confused. Is yr entry that reads
=There were 4 entries in the timeline - christened on c. 1686 with the same information - with no source. Probably loaded with Gedcoms in the early days.

Date: 1686
Place: Ardennes, Montherme, France
Location: Ardennes, Montherme, France

I have removed all but 1

This does suggest that he was born in France?=

referring to Geni, or to the FFYP?

=The First Fifty Years Project have Catharinaa as daughter to a first wife

http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g5/p5206.htm and http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g8/p8567.htm

[S325] Baptism Register, Palmkronieke I Baptisms, Lorna: 7.2.1706 trou "Ignatius Maree van Calabria wedr: met Susanna van Veuren van Cabo jongd:" Sy was d/v Gerrit Jansz van Vuuren en Susanna Jacobs. Ignatius het c1705 na die Kaap gekom met sy kinders Catharina en Ignatius uit sy vorige huwelik. 19.5.1707 vra Ignatius Marre van dondregt (sic) verlof om na Drakenstein te verhuis. Sy land van herkoms is nog omstrede. Langefontein, Kuilsrivier het aan hom behoort. Hy koop St Omar, Dal Josephat in 1724 van Armand Veron.=

This suggests Ignatius ii is also a child of 1st wife? But on Geni we have his dob as 1729

The christening reference was on Ignatius's Geni time line - there is no source given - I removed all the identical surplus entries and left the baptism. - Can we find the source for that entry I wonder - which might be the source of Paul being the father.

FFYP -
http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g5/p5206.htm
Clearly have him as married to Suzanne Janse van Vuuren, with a daughter Catherine Mare born around 1690 from a previous marriage - she was married 29 October 1713 to Johannes Janse van Vuuren b. c Apr 1694
with the following children
Gerrit Janse van Vuuren b. b 9 Feb 1716
Anna Elisabeth van Vuuren b. b 10 Jul 1718, d. b 9 Nov 1727
Johannis van Feùre b. b 22 Jul 1721
Lùcas van Feùre b. b 30 Jul 1724
Anna Elizabeth Janzen van Veùren b. b 9 Nov 1727
Susanna van Voore b. b 23 Nov 1732

Ignace/Ignatius did have a son Ignatius bapt. 14 Aug 1729

I see no mention of a sister or of a father Paulus - although one of his sons was named Paulus.

The S325 reference suggests that he went to SA a widower with 2 children, Catharina and Ignatius but I see nothing in what I have read to support this - no mention of the first Ignatius. Maybe we need to get hold of Lorna who wrote this to see why she says that?

Which leaves me to ponder whether what we had was this!

Ignatius Mare with 2 children from a first marriage (Catharina and Ignatius) (No source for this) arrived in SA in 1705 from Italy. The Bapt. reference suggests he was born in France and needs to be investigated. He married Susanna van Veuren in 1707. He moved to Drakensten in 1707.

No further mention is made of the son Ignatius
His daughter Catharina is as above. There was no sister to Ignatius Snr.

Praia a Mare (known as Praja) is a place in Calabria, Italy http://wikitravel.org/en/Calabria; http://www.traveldudes.org/travel-tips/praja-mare-beaten-track-regi...

Mare translates from Italian as 'sea', and from French as 'pond'

Pieter Coertzen: 'The Huguenots of 1688-1988, Tafelberg Publishers 1988' has birth place of Ignace and his SISTER Catherine as either Calabria in Italy or Cambresis in Germany, and points out also that there remains debate as to whether they were Huguenots.

http://sa-passenger-list.za.net/huguenotsettlers.php cites a MARIA (not Catherine) Mare as coming with Ignace c 1706.
A typo?

The French ship list http://huguenots-france.org/france/refuge/afrique_sud/embarques.htm cites CALABRIA (OU) CAMBRESIS for Ignace and Catherina.

@ My Great Great Grandfather was Marais. I think My Geat Great Grand Mother was Catharina Maria Cornelia (Surname: Unknown) He lived in Cradock, South Africa. I am not sure about his name. My Grand Mother Catharina Maria (Born MARAIS 23.9.1892 - 23.11.1955) married Jacobus Johannes SNYMAN
The Marais children was and not in order of birth: 1) Catharina Maria 2) Willem 3) Jannie 4) Maria Magdalena 5) Anna Dorothea 6) Sara Johanna Dorothea 7) Bella

Do anybody have information about them?

@Sharon

It seems to me that the county of Cambresis (Cambrai) is where Ignace was from. The region is populated by Walloons, French-speaking Belgians and the like. Essentially French with strong Protestant tendencies.

Calabria makes zero sense here, it was a Roman Catholic and Eastern rite region, old-school Christianity, no relation.

The De Savoy family, Waldesians (Protestants), may have originated in the County of Savoie which included the Swiss city of Vaud where the Waldesians were founded.

@June

Ardennes is located in the vicinity of Cambrai, Nord department in France. This hits the mark!

Anna Elisabeth was born c.1718:

Anna Elisabeth, d' Vader Jan Veure, d' Moeder Katharina Marre, getu Ignatius Marre, en Jannetie Terie, 10 Julij 1718. - Stellenbosch Doopregister.

@Alexander.

If the man was born in Cambrai, why would he tell the marriage official that he was from Calabria? See his marriage entry.

Who said he was a Protestant before he came to the Cape? He might have been Roman Catholic for all we know!

Hi Jansi, thank-you for showing an interest, the facts are as follows:

After the settlement of the Cape in 1652, the practice of the Catholic religion was prohibited by the civil authorities. It was only following an ordnance by Commissioner General De Mist, dated 25 July 1804, that Catholic congregations were permitted to practice their faith in South Africa. http://www.catholic-ct.co.za/about/history.htm

His place of origin is uncertain and has been questioned based on his marriage entry in the Dutch Reformed Church records, Stellenbosch.
For more info see:
Lorna Newcomb and Ockert Malan compilers. Annale van Nederduits Gereformeerde Moedergemeente Stellenbosch No 1.. CD-ROM. Stellenbosch Die Genootskap vir die Kerkversameling, 2004.

Hi Alexander

Just look at his marriage entry. It is attached to his profile.

I know that only the Dutch Reformed Church was allowed at the Cape.

What religion might he have practised before he came to the Cape?

@Jansi

You could be right, Ignace may have come from a Roman Catholic home himself, growing up. The problem in stating that he was from Calabria in Italy is quite elementary really. Protestant thought was non-existent in Calabria, still is. Italian settlers did not arrive at the Cape until much later. No other settlers were from anywhere in Italy, not to mention Calabria, a poor region with no contact with the rest of the world during the 17th to 19th centuries.

The reality at the time was that the vast majority of settlers were Protestant, fleeing religious prosecution. French and Dutch settlers fall for the most part into this category. The German settlers were the exception in this regard. Italian settlers didn't arrive at the Cape until much later! The French settlers who were not clearly distinguishable as Huguenots tended to speak Flemish and were from Brabant, Nord and surrounds (Belgium). They could marry Dutch-speaking settlers as they were able to communicate with them. Italy makes no sense?

The marriage entry was not entered by him, obviously by the dominee or one of the church officials. Look closely, there is a question mark on the word Calabria and there are scribbles alongside the entry. The cross-correlation with other entries where Cambresis (cambrai) is mentioned makes this entry stand out as a mistake due to possible unfamiliarity by the clerk who entered the info into the registry.

BUT the man told the marriage official that he was from Calabria!

And he came alone, in 1705, not with other Huguenots in 1688 - 1690.

Wow, this discussion is really covering ground guys. Thank you.

I'm in the unfortunate position of having to see clients today and tomorrow due to the irritation of having a job :-) so will be looking in only intermittently.

Please PLEASE cut and paste the debate points onto the project.

I've identifed 4 problem areas where a Decision needs to be taken on this line.

The first one is pretty much sorted:

1) THE MARES ARE NOT THE MARAIS:
Problem: Placing Catherina Mare as Catherina Marais, daughter of Charles Marais

Summary of Discussion (Please Add):
The addition of Charles Marais as a father of one of Paul Mare's children is erroneous, and the Catherina Marais involved appears to often acquire all the life details of this Catherina Mare, making it appear a logical merge until the tree gives her two different fathers!

Decision:The Mare & Marais lines are two different families and the one is not an evolution of the other

2) WITHIN THE MARE LINE: THERE MAY OR MAY NOT BE TWO CATHERINA (MARE) VAN VUURENs

Problem:
a) If there are 2: The elder Catherina Mare has either a name-sake niece or half-sister, Catherina Mare ii (1718), who then - to make the 'rompslomp' worse also became her daughter-in-law (with the effect that they both become Catherina Van Vuuren on marriage.)

b) If there are not 2, then who does Gerrit Van Vuuren ii (1716) marry in 1738?

Summary of Discussion (Please Add):

a)

b) So far the only source on Geni for Gerrit marrying Catherina is Ancestry, with no good validation for it: I've started a Discussion asking Judith Susanna Hendrika 5 Marais b2c1d6e5f2g7h7i12j2 if she has sources.

Alexander points out that “ The SAG has a number of mistakes in the Van Vuuren register.

From what I can see it appears that Daniel and Andries Van Vuuren [both married Viljoens] are incorrectly placed as the children of Johannes Van Vuuren & Catherine Maree when they belong under Johannes Van Vuuren & Johanna Oelofse.

Gerrit Van Vuuren is placed as the younger brother of Daniel and Andries with the SAG having Gerrit Van Vuuren as the husband of Catherine Maree.

It is also a good idea to confirm Gerrit Van Vuuren's parentage as it is quite possible that Johannes Van Vuuren son of Gerrit Jansz may have been documented as Gerrit Van Vuuren, when in actual fact they are the same individual with the possible full name of Johannes Gerritsz Van Vuuren [x Chaterine Maree]. Just a thought.”

Decision:

3) IS CATHERINA MARE i IGNACE'S DAUGHTER, OR HIS SISTER?

Problem:
Either a) Ignace Mare i (1684) has Catherina Mare i (1692) as his daughter by his unknown first wife, and he comes out to SA in 1700-5 as a widower - together with his daughter,

Or b) he comes out to SA with his much younger sister, Catherina Mare i (1692) (daughter of Paul Mare and NN)?
Either way, they both marry siblings after they get to SA:>In 1706 Ignace Mare i (1684) marries Suzanne Janszoon van Vuren i (1691) ; In 1713 Catherina Mare i (1692) marries Johannes Van Vuuren i (1694 )

Summary of Discussion (Please Add):

a)

b) Pieter Coertzen: 'The Huguenots of 1688-1988, Tafelberg Publishers 1988' has Ignace and his SISTER Catherine

Decision: .

4) IS IGNACE FROM CALABRIA OR CAMBRESIS?

Problem:
Pieter Coertzen: 'The Huguenots of 1688-1988, Tafelberg Publishers 1988' has birth place of Ignace and Catherine as either Calabria in Italy or Cambresis in Germany, and points out also that there remains debate as to whether they were Huguenots.

Either a) He is from Calabria Italy (not France!)

Or b) He is from Cambresis (France? or Germany?)

Summary of Discussion (Please Add):

a)

b)

Decision:

As you can see, I've started taking the pertinent chunks of discussion posts and put them under the relevant a) or b) sections on the project.
But STARTED is the operative word.

Most of June's, Jansi's and Alex's research points still need to be added.

That way we can weigh up the evidence placed next to each other, and make a provisional decision about how we want it to appear on Geni for the moment.
(I am so loving the way you guys are using each other's thought processes to bounce off the pros and cons. Worth it's weight in gold ito research.)

I have finished some merges that had been instigated but it is all a bit of a mess - maybe we need to agree not to make/set in process any more mores until a decision has been reached?

Ignace first wife shown as wife of Paul?
What is the possibility that Ignace is also been confused with his son of the same name for whom there are some references?
If so then some brother and sister references could possibly be explaned.

This is becoming much too complicated. Can we not do this point by point?

I would suggest first removing Paul de Salgas and Unknown wife of Paul as a parents of Ignace and Catherine - we have no evidence of their existence.

Then add PN NN as Ignace's first wife, with child Catherine MARE. Let's just stick to her maiden name to avoid confusion.

And could we please use the genealogical convention: PN = prenom nescio, i.e. first/given name unknown; and NN = nomen nescio, i.e. last name unknown?

Then we can deal with Ignace's provenance and Catherine Mare, alleged wife of Gerrit van Vuuren.

This just got quite messy because people are throwing in new matches which are with non-pro trees and these arte most likely to just stick there as blue crosses. Until this exercise headed by Sharon Doubell is getting sorted it will be best not to initiate any further merges which just confuse the issue. I have removed these for now - they can be re-instated later once it is all sorted.

Sounds like a good plan Private - Sharon Doubell can you do this please as it is your baby?

Jansi using the conventional PN and NN is good practice in your PAF but on Geni it is a nightmare as so many matches are thrown up and clutter the match box. My preference when there is no known parents is to leave the profiles alone - as "Add father" etc. When just the one parent is named I prefer to leave the mother unfilled or be more specific with "Mother/father of etc." - because of the bad matches that are thrown up which sadly are picked up by well meaning users and cause bad merges.