Thyra "Danebod" Haraldsdatter, Dronning af (Vest)Danmark - Who was the father of Thyra Danebod?

@ Justin Swanström (on vacation):

Thank you! :-)

Kind regards,
Peder Dahlman

Efter kontakt til forskerne på Kongernes Jelling:

Ingen kan vist med god samvittighed sige noget som helst om Thyra og derfor vil det være halsløs gerning at forsøge at sige noget om hendes far. De to eneste skriftlige kilde vi har fra Thyras samtid er de to runesten og derfor slutter sagen faktisk lige her. Beklager hvis mine oplysninger virker lidt kolde, men der er undertiden spor der faktisk ender blindt: Vi ved ikke hvor hun kom fra, vi ved ikke hvor hun er begravet, vi kender ingen af hendes familiemedlemmer, når vi ser bort fra Gorm og hendes tre børn.

Med venlig hilsen/best regards

Hans Ole Matthiesen
Enhedsleder – Head of Collections
Nationalmuseet - Forsknings- og formidlingsafdelingen
Kongernes Jelling

Hej Ole,

Det var et fint svar og virker ikke koldt på nogen måde, det er fakta.

Mvh
Per

Hvis vi i Geni skal følge nyere kilder så foreslår jeg at vi følger en Skandinavisk kilde, f.eks basert på Heimskringla.

http://lind.no/nor/index.asp?lang=gb&emne=nor&person=Klakk-...=

@Bjørn

I have a link to the mainpage of Heimskringla, which is god as they have a wide representation of sources, and also translate into english.

http://heimskringla.no/wiki/Hovedside

However we have to take into account that Ole have contacted the schoolars who have worked at and with Jelling for years, also we have to deal with the fact that they only have the stones at Jelling as their main source of Thyras ansestors which they concluded is unknown. The fact they know, She was married to Gorm and had three children.

That said, I also think that this is god debate and think there*s plenty of room for theories according to known sources, but it will only be theories regarding origin and who might be Thyras parents.

I actually learned a lot of things regarding the west saxons at Mercia, the Danelaw also the alliances made between English chiftains and the Danish vikings.

I noticed one interesting thing reading about it, that a danish chiftain Guthrum actually is the founder of the Danelaw, and also was christened and took the name Æthelstan.

Reading about it changed my view of Saxo and his writing about the posible connection between the English and Danes and the posibility that Thyra actually might have been of English origin.

Kind Regards
Per skulason

You could clikc on the Hemskringla link in the link I posted above to get it in four languages....

http://lind.no/nor/index.asp?lang=gb&emne=nor&list=&vis...

@ Ole Kristian Moustgaard:

Thanks for taking the time to contact the scholars at Kongernes Jelling!

I agree with Per Skulason above - I don't find the answer cold, a fact is a fact, so to speak.

@ Bjørn P. Brox:

Thank you for the link to Heimskringla!

Best regards,
Peder Dahlman

This has been a very interesting discussion to follow, sadly like so many questions there is never likely to be a definitive answer.

I think that these types of discussions are some of the strongest ways in which Geni users can truely collaborate with each other.

Now someone just needs to summarise this discussion to replace the copied wikipedia texts in the profile's About Me.

And since there is not a definitive answer at this time, Thyra's ancestry should be severed as it is now on Geni. The theories should instead be written in the about me section.

Remember that genealogy is about provable facts, as the science it is. If the ancestry is just a theory, and not proven yet, it should not be linked as such on Geni.

Agreed.

You Guys are Fantastic. Thank you for all you hard work

You genealogists are all so very fantastic and so very clever.

So many managers... and Harald Klak is STILL listed as Thyras father.

What's the point of theese debates, if your agreements has no reaction?

Do you want ME to remove Thyras parrents, or is it only empty talk from you "fantastic" genealogists?

Well, the conclusions from my side is that we follow the nordic sources which tells that her parents are correcrt, i.e Harald Klak

Let's hope that the Kings vigilante followers have the same opinion.

Well I think we have have concluded that the parenthood of Thyra Danebod, is not known.

She is known from the Stones at Jelling.

Saxo which also is a Nordic source differs from Snorre, he mentioned that Thyra was of English origin and do not mention Harald Klak as her father.

We also concluded that she was not a daughter of Harald Klak.

I can't remove anything because I'm not a Curator, but what I think is, the Parenthood of Thyra is not known and verry uncertain, some belive it is Harald Klak others that she is of English origin but the fact is she is only known from the stones of Jelling and that information schould be mentioned under Tthyra Danbebod.

Kindly
Per Skulason

@ Elna Kirstine Plougmann Pedersen:

Well...

There isn't much I can do about Thyra's profile and her parents (I haven't got access to managing her profile).

As long as it is clearly stated - and obvious to all users on Geni.com - that Thyra's parents are NOT known and should be seen as only fictional, I don't care too much.

Let those who enjoy being in 'the world of the wonderful sagas' keep their dreams.

Don't get upset if some people calling themselves serious genealogist can't differ from what is true and not , obviously totally unaware of scientific methods and ethic obligations, when researching.

People need their dreams - let them have them. Just leave it.

Kindest regards,
Peder Dahlman

I haven't seen a definite conclusion that she can't have been a daughter of Harald Klak - we've concluded that:

1) Snorre claims she's Harald Klak's daughter
2) Saxo claims she's the daughter of an English king
3) There's no third claim documented in similarly ancient sources, so there's no support for any other alternative.

Saxo and Snorre are roughly contemporary, and lived long after Thyra, so there's not much basis for choosing one over the other.

I certainly wish that Geni supported listing mulitple possibilities. Perhaps some day....

@ Peder Jørgen Dahlman

I'm sorry, but this is not the first time, there has been different opinions.
Fx. look at the debates about Gorm den Gamle and surnames

What is more upsetting, is the way that some curators are behaving when you don't agree with them.

Kind regard
Elna's husband John Pedersen

@ Elna Kirstine Plougmann Pedersen:

(and of course John Pedersen too)

As it is with Thyra no one can claim anything about her parenthood. That's a fact. Anything else is pure fantasy and only fictional.

About previous discussions: I wasn't aware of those (I'm pretty new at being active here on geni.com). I'd better check them out to get a better hold on what's been said before - about what and by whom.

I can't help thinking there's no use starting a discussion if the outcome is like banging your head on a wall. I don't understand why anyone should try communicate and find new solutions and/or correct profiles that are totally wrong or obviously not supported by reliable sources and cold facts, if nothing happens when proven wrong. Still, not much I can do about it. :-(

As long as it is clearly stated no one knows about Thyra's parenthood - then I'm satisfied (for now).

I hope you didn't felt like I was being rude? I only wish for a friendly solution and respectful communication - as we are having now. :-)

Kindest regards (med vänlig hälsning från Sverige),
Peder Dahlman

@ Harald Tveit Alvestrand:

Listing multiple possibilities would definitely really be something. As you said - perhaps some day... :-)

Kindly,
Peder Dahlman

I'm back from vacation now, and catching up.

What I'd really like to do is disconnect her parents, then list all the different theories (with links) in the About.

I'm not sure that there is general agreement on doing it this way. What do you all think?

Her parents is technically not unknown, so making her without parents is wrong (and will probably probably start an endless fight) since the fact is that we have actually have two sources, - they just tell two different things.

My general impression by reading around is that when people compare Snorre and Saxo they tell that Snorre is more reliable, - even if both are mixing mythology and history.

I would solve this by keeping it as it is now, but write a note about it, and when Geni comes with a solution with multiple parent sets we change the profile to that.

And before you claim we have no proofs for any of them I agree, - I don't even have proof that my father is my father without a DNA test, but he died in 1981 and even a DNA test is not 100%, and it even get worse the further back you come.

We can only rely on written documents and what the mothers tell, and make the best out of it.

the king has spoken!

Norwegians like Snorre better than Saxo... what a surprise !!!

And when Geni is ruled by norwegian genealogists, they are free to change danish history.

I hope you're joking, Elna!

I'm the curator for this profile. I'm an American with Swedish ancestry. My partner is an American with Danish ancestry. Bjørn is one of the most senior curators, respected by all of us for his fairness and his level-headed thinking. (That doesn't mean he and I always agree, but it does mean that I value his opinion.)

No one is going to change anything, except by doing it the Geni way -- after discussion and debate.

I am NOT joking... and after his attacks on me and my profiles, I have absolutley NO respect for this person or his vigilante followers.

When Geni-team tells me to contact a curator for help, and I instead get attackt by this "low-life" person (he fx called my profiles "FAKE"), I will never respect him or his opinions.

It is sad, that sutch a person have that kind of power over Geni and its curators.

No wonder that so many Danes have left Geni.

I'm sorry you had that experience, Elna. Geni wants you to benefit from being here. The curators want you to benefit from being here.

Curators are not all the same. We do not always agree with each other. If you are unhappy with one curator, then you should contact someone else. We have a Danish curator, but he is not very active right now.

Contact me privately. I will be happy to work with you, or I will help you find a curator who can help you.

@ Elna Kirstine Plougmann Pedersen:

Please, let Justin give you a hand (I'm sure he can assist you). Sometimes people are of different opinions and we can't expect all to be friends (even if I'd love to). Still, even if I'm new to being active here, I do respect all curators I've met so far - and that goes especially for Justin!

Kindest regards,
Peder Dahlman

@ Justin Swanström:

To me it's all fine as long as it is clearly stated that Thyra's parents are unknown, but there are at least two main theories about who her parents might be.

I don't think I'm the one to decide if Thyra should be disconnected from her parents or not - that decision should be made by those who manages her profile.

Harald Tveit Alvestrand's wish for multiple choices would be nice if made [technically] possible.

I do feel Bjørn P. Brox got a point. If Thyra's parents are disconnected it might start and endless fight about her parenthood, as he said.

But, I don't agree with Bjørn about Thyra's parents - Snorre is no better source than Saxo (at least not in this case). The only good source about Thyra is the Jelling-stones - and they don't tell anything about her parents.

Sometimes we must agree to disagree, right?

Anyone else got a suggestion for what to do about Thyra's parents?

Respectfully,
Peder Dahlman

It's not very elegant but it is possible to have an unresolved parent conflict on Geni - it has been used without upset before.

Alternately (and more frequently) I make a placeholder, curator locked, unknown parent profile with links within the profile overview to the possible parents.