Ignace Maré, SV/PROG - Birthplace Calabria?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Tuesday, January 13, 2015
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  • https://www.geni.com/people/Paul-Mare/6000000002960932736 cf https://www.geni.com/discussions/110728?msg=877828 Scans from 3 portraits in his house - possibly not these people at all.
  • https://www.geni.com/people/Paul-Mare/6000000002960932736 cf https://www.geni.com/discussions/110728?msg=877828 Scans from 3 portraits in his house - possibly not these people at all.
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I realize that this discussion happened some time ago Sharon Doubell but I've only just come across it. Could Cav. Andre Eugene Martinaglia, b8c1 please tell me if there is any documentation anywhere showing that "Regarding Mare(Maree) His father was Paul Mare de Salgras, and mother Germaine Mathieu. De Salgras definetly Spanish, and Mathieu French"?
Ignatius Mare is in my direct line and I'd like to be able to cite some sources regarding his parentage so this would be most helpful. BTW your information on the Waldensians is absolutely fascinating!! Thank you.

Married and baptised his kids in a catholic church so he was most likely from Calabria.

Ignatius Mare, j.m. van Calabrian married Anna Lijsbeth "Duikinijhs" - the ondertrouw was recorded on 3 May 1690 at the Augustijnenkerk, and their marriage on 9 July 1690 was in the Oud Katholieke Kerk- Kerk aan de Voorstraat. It was in that Catholic church where they baptised their children (other than the last son, who was baptised at the Catholic church in Amsterdam.)

Private User I think this is borne out in the DNA too as I've noticed many South Africans with Italian admixture who are descendants of Ignatius/Ignace Maré. Would love to look at a GEDmatch matrix of his descendants and see if I can pin down the Italian BGA to a specific region to confirm.

  • chromosome region, i.e. not state or territory region.

He was most likely from "Calabria Mare" Took the last name Mare for some reason. Wonder if his father was really Paul. Also curios as to his mothers name and origin?

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9QJ-DLZV?i=48&cc=... - primary source for his ondertrou also gives his birthplace as Calabria.

An mtDNA descendant of Catharina Maré, PROG Christian Frederick Prins (Chris or Fred) has tested as J2b1:

J2b1: West Asian Copper & Bronze Age
Today J2b1 is most common in the western Balkans (Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia) and Cyprus. It is also found in above 1% of the population in parts of southern Italy (Calabria, Apulia), the Peloponnese in Greece, Lebanon, Jordan, eastern Turkey, Armenia and Iran. The oldest samples recovered so far were from Early Bronze Age Jordan (c. 2400 BCE, Lazaridis et al. (2016)) and Late Bronze Age Lebanon (Canaanite burial from Sidon, Haber et al. (2017)). It was also found in an Egyptian mummy (c. 660 BCE, Schuenemann et al. (2017)).
J2b1's origins remain unclear, but it probably originated in the South Caucasus and/or Iran and might have spread to the Levant, Cyprus and Greece with the Kura-Araxes culture during the Bronze Age. The branch found in the western Balkans (Y22069) is distinct from the East Mediterranean and Caucasian branch. It seems to have formed 6,000 years ago, but its TMRCA is very young at 900 years before present, suggesting a medieval founder effect.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml#J2b1

Thanks to Wilma Greyling (Basson) for bringing this to our attention. It helps solidify the Italian origin.

All so very interesting and still so much to be learned, so little time ..... ! Let's do this! Thanks all.

As stated before my grandmother is Hester Sophia, Scharlotte Mare, as per her ID book. I do agree that DNA does not lie, I will however take a DNA test and believe that we are descendants of Ignace Mare. According to my grandmother we have Italian ancestry a DNA test will link us to Ignace Mare. As per Cavalier Andre, who states that Mare is Italian, it will be verified by my DNA test. I will send results soonest. Have a great day.

Amanda, there is a line on geni for your grandmother. You need to contact Nicolene PAYZE or Jenny May Taylor to merge into it.

Thank you Sharon, Ignatius Mare is written in our Big Family bible as our first Immigrant in South Africa, research was done by my Grandmother, Hester Sophia, Scharlotte Maree herself in the 60's. I was brought up that we were off Italian/spanish ancestry. The French thing is quite a bit of a shock to me, I will be honest. I have noticed that South Africans changed their surnames to Maree through the years. But I think a DNA test will clear this up quite quickly. My dad and I are both olive skinned with strong Mediterranean features and characteristics and always are identified by other people as Italian or spanish.

I saw a version of his name as Ignatius Marij : on his son's baptism record: Joannes Laurentius
In Netherlands, Church Baptisms, 1580-1811

Name Joannes Laurentius
Gender Male
Baptism Feb 18 1700
Kerk De Toren, Amsterdam, North Holland, Netherlands
Father Ignatius Marij
Mother Anna Elisabeth Tuckingh
Source
Collection: DTB 331, p.126
Institution: Stadsarchief Amsterdam
Archive: NL-SAA-908410
Source place: Amsterdam, North Holland, Netherlands
Volume date: Between Jan 1 1564 and Dec 31 1811
Source: View full record on archief.amsterdam

Joannes Laurentius baptism :
Amsterdam City Archives in Amsterdam, Church records baptisms
Part: 331, Period: 1644-1746, Amsterdam, archive 5001, inventory number 331, February 18, 1700, DTB Dopen, record number DTB 331, folio p.126

Johannes Laurentius with father as Ignatius Marij
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6ZBS-5X2G

I think we have that already?

Ignatius Maré, SV/PROG
Ignatius Maré c1670
x 1690 Anna Elizabeth Thekens

  • Johanna 90 *Ignatius 92 *Lucas 97*Joannes 00 *Catherina?

xx Suzanne Janszoon van Vuren

  • Johannes 1708 *Anna Elisabeth 11*Susanna 13*Lùcas 16*Francina 18*Maria 21 *Paulus 24 *Magdalena 26 *Ignatius 29

cf Joannes Laurentius Mare

Amanda Mansell-Jones this many generations away, you have about 130 grandparents - your appearance would not be significantly affected by Ignace's nationality. (eg, I'm his direct gr grandchild, and I don't look slightly Italian). Similarly, your DNA results alone wouldn't prove anything about Ignatius' ancestry - they're too diluted by that many generations - especially when we don't have a body to compare it to.
Still, DNA is fascinating and worth doing.

Hi Sharon - re the Joannes Laurentius comment, you are correct and I saw that. That comment was added - just to show that Ignatius's surname variation was done in that doc, as Marij instead of Mare. Thnx.

Hi Sharon, my grandmother is a direct Great Grand Child of Ignace Mare, she is born Sophia Hester Scharlotte Mare, he is also in our family tree in our family bible for 4 generations . Her brother is still alive, we will however do a y chromosome test, paternal ancestral test. This is more accurate as Y-chromosomes don't mutate from father to son.

Great. Do let us know the results. It will be fascinating.

Will do, as it will be more accurate coming from a Male direct Mare descendant. I just counted down the family tree, she was the 7th direct great grand daugter of Ignace Mare, this makes me the 9th generation. I was born in 1978. She was quite a progressive woman of her time and held a very high management position as financial executive in the 60's in South Africa at John Drake's large pharmaceutical company, which was quite significant for those years as women hardly got any major job titles during those times. She spent more than 10 years researching our family' tree, and stated that our origins are Italian and spanish. And this adds up to Cavalier Andre's Genealogical research on Italian families in South Africa. She was a very smart woman. It was however suggested that a direct male Mare descendant take the DNA test, due to the fact that the Y chromosome does not mutate from father to son and can be traced up to a 1000 years. You can also research this as well.

:-) Looking forward to it.

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