Ivar "The Boneless", King of Dublin - Was Ivar Imar and what does that mean about Ragnar?

following on...

The idea that Ivar and his brothers attacked England in 865 to avenge their "father" would by this theory become a later addition to explain/ennoble the invasion above a simple power grab.

Then once Ivar and his brother's are connected by legend to Ragnar connecting them to Ragnar's other sons (Bjorn, Eric, Hvitserk, etc) is simple arithmetic.

Interesting theory, but I have to admit I'm not a big fan of trying to "correct" the sources unless there is a compelling reason to do so and enough peripheral evidence to make it worthwhile.

Maybe you would be interested in this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dmar#Ivar_the_Boneless

The key points here (in my opinion) are:

1. "some suppose Ivar the Boneless to be identical to Ímar, though there is no scholarly consensus one way or another."

2. "while medieval writers seem to have been as interested as modern historians about Ívarr’s origins, it is perhaps wiser to accept that we do not know what these really were".-- Clare Downham

Your lack of belief in unicorns does nothing to convince me that unicorns are not real, it can only prove to me that you do not believe in them.

It's just a imaginative jig-sawing together of the pieces into a semi-logical pattern, obviously i can't prove anything and my musings are probably even less informed than whoever wrote the wiki article...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ivar_the_Boneless#Ivar_the_Bonele...

Justin Durand, My little theory is just a bit of something to entertain myself on a Friday afternoon, i don't think we should merge the two Ivars here on Geni, even if i do personally lean towards the side of equating them.

The profile for "Ivar the Boneless" has the death date, burial location and suffix of Ivarr Gudrodson, king of Dublin, i cannot edit them because it is locked up tight. Death should be "after 870", location of death "unknown", burial location "unknown, possibly Repton,South Derbyshire".

The first portion of the About, whatever language it is, seems to focus quite a lot on "Irish" Ivar and the last portion is definitely describing "Irish" Ivar rather than "English" Ivar, i can clean that up and apportion to different language tabs as well as sort out the sons but have to go play in traffic first!

Well i moved all the sons over to the Irish family but i cant clean up the ABout because it is also locked against editing.

Gofraid ua Ímair 921–934 grandson of Ímar ( Ivar the Boneless )
Olaf III Guthfrithson 934–940 son of Gofraid ua Ímair

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Dublin

@Alex Moes [Moeskoecker] would not it be better if you had the correct information before you change records that others have done and are probably more accurate than what you're doing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dmar

Also - I am also interested to learn what is your background in medieval studies?

Anna Tuomaantytär Kukko , i do not understand your meaning.

Are you disagreeing with my opinion that Ivar = Imar?

Are you disagreeing with my statement that the data of the two separate profiles has been mixed up and needs correcting?

Are you just wanting to know more about me?

@Alex Moes [Moeskoecker] if you are referring to me - Then my name is not Anna Kucko...

What I am pointing out is that you seem to have stripped Ivar the boneless of the children that are acknowledged. Namely: Bárid; Sitriuc and Sichfrith.

And what kind of sources do you base your revisions you made on Ivar's profile last friday?

Private User, sorry to both Anna's, obviously I tagged the wrong person.

I stripped Ivar the Boneless of those three sons based on the work of Charles Cawley who identifies all three as sons of Imar.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/IRELAND.htm#_Toc389126206

a) BARDR [Barith] (-881). He succeeded his father as King [of Dublin]. The Annals of Innisfallen record in 873 that "Barid with a great fleet from Ath Cliath [went] by sea westwards, and he plundered Ciarraigne Luachra under ground [i.e. the raiding of the caves]"[1172]. The Chronicon Scottorum records the death in 881 of "Barith son of Imar, head of the Norsemen…by a miracle of God and Ciannan"[1173]. The Annals of Ulster record in 881 that "the oratory of Cianan was destroyed by the foreigners…afterwards Barith, a great despot of the Norsemen, was killed by St. Ciannan"[1174].
b) SIGFRITH (-killed 888). He presumably succeeded his brother as King [of Dublin]. The Annals of Innisfallen record in 883 "the burning of Les Mor by the son of Imar"[1175]. It is supposed that this passage refers to Sigfrith who had (presumably) succeeded his brother two years earlier. The Annals of Ulster record the death in 888 of "Sigfrith son of Imar king of the Norseman…killed by his kinsman"[1176].
c) SIHTRIC (-killed 896). He presumably succeeded his brother as King [of Dublin]. The Annals of Ulster record in 893 "a great dissension among the foreigners of Ath Cliath and they became dispersed, one section following Imar´s son, and the other Sigfrith the jarl”[1177]. The Annals of Ulster record in 894 that "Imar´s son came again to Ireland”[1178]. It is assumed that this passage refers to Sihtric whose departure is implied by the passage dated 893 in the same source. The Annals of Ulster record the death in 896 of "Sitriuc son of Imar killed by other Norsemen”[1179].

[1172] Mac Airt, S. (trans.) (1951) Annals of Innisfallen (Dublin), available at <http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T100016/index.html&gt; (ed. Färber, B.) (26 Jan 2008), 873.3, p. 135.
[1173] Chronicon Scottorum, 881, p. 141.
[1174] Annals of Ulster, 873.3, p. 329.
[1175] Annals of Innisfallen, 883.1, p. 137.
[1176] Annals of Ulster, 888.9, p. 345.
[1177] Annals of Ulster, 893.3, p. 347.
[1178] Annals of Ulster, 894.4, p. 349.
[1179] Annals of Ulster, 895.4, p. 349.

Obviously i should put some data in the About sections of those profiles but as Barid mac Ímair, King of Dublin's profile is over 4 years old and still blank i think it is a bit harsh to criticize me for not having gotten to it in the last 4 days.

When you say these men are "acknowledged" as sons of Ivar Boneless who is it that you are referring to that acknowledges them?

@Alex Moes [Moeskoecker] There exist so many sources about these men and how they were related. It would be a long list of sources that I would list up if I where to give you a complete list of sources. Then the site http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/IRELAND.htm#_Toc389126206 has at the bottom a huge list of reliable sources on these men and their descendants - that is if they had any known to us in modern times.

@Alex Moes [Moeskoecker] Here is a Wikipedia page obviously from Ireland cause Ivar's name over there was "Ímar or Uí-Ímar". The pronounciation is often a problem when names are concerned. And that alone could cause a misunderstanding. In the book of The Nordic Kings, Ivar is said to have had no issue, then he could have had children but they could have died young.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dmar

I don't know if it's relevant here, but remember that in Gaelic the letter combination "mh" has a "v" sound (Scots Gaelic) or "w" sound (Irish Gaelic). Easy to see how Ivar and Imhar could be the same name.

@Alex Moes [Moeskoecker] here is a link to a Historical site on the Viking kings in Dublin. It has a timeline and that could help avoid confusion about the persons and the era they lived. The family names are often the same and that could trigger some confusion and errors
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsBritain/GaelsDublin.htm

Anna,

On Geni there is a profile for Ivar the Boneless and another profile for Ivar, King of Dublin.

On Wikipedia there is a page for Ivar the Boneless and a page for Imar King of Dublin.

There is a common belief that the two men are the same person but it is not a proven fact.

Charles Cawley's page that you linked to (which is the same page i quoted) describes the family of Imar, King of Dublin and notes that many people equate Imar with Ivar.

Both Wikipedia pages reference that many people equate Imar with Ivar but that there is no proof of this.

Ivar the Boneless' wikipedia page lists no children because no records exist of Ivar the Boneless having children.

Ivar, King of Dublin's wikipedia page discusses his sons and grandsons.

All that I have done on Geni is work on making the Geni profiles of Ivar and Imar match Cawley's website and wikipedia.

If you have evidence that ivar the Boneless and Ivar, King of Dublin are the same person then this would be a ground breaking historical revelation and i would be really happy to hear about it. But the fact that you are referring to webpages like http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsBritain/GaelsDublin.htm makes me very concerned that your background in medieval studies is even more lacking than mine.

Private User
There is a very interesting (to me) comment on this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ivar_the_Boneless#Ivar_the_Bonele...
about the lack of references to Imar, King of Dublin in the Icelandic sagas.

The person commenting is suggesting that the absence of Imar (a very powerful man in the region) from the sagas is evidence that Imar and Ivar are the same person.

Is it true that Imar does not get a mention in the Icelandic Sagas?

Ivar "The Boneless", King of Dublin is your 24th great grandmother's husband's wife's half brother.

Alex,

Why argue semantics while discounting linguistic and dialectic variants?

Like de Soppe is von Sobbe with variants of Zobbe, Zoppe, Suppot, Soppen, Seppois, Suppe, Sobe, Sobieski, Sopkovich, etc.

It's all the same name originating from the same Roman family whom migrated from Dalmatia and 'possibly' descendants of Sobek in Egypt.

Ironically, the proof of connection in the name variants containing 'mh' and 'v' that sound the same... Surely, that is valid proof enough to leave the profile and children alone until proof of something different can be presented- aside from the rehash of info.

In light of all the evidence presented, there is no reason to believe that Ivar and Imar aren't the same person.

Mary,

The names Ivar and Imar are the same, i've never suggested otherwise, i use them separately as a short hand to differentiate between the two identities.
This is not a semantic argument.

There is no evidence that Ivar the Boneless had children. Imar/Ivar Gudrodsson had several sons.
So the Geni profile for Ivar should not have children and the the Geni profile for Imar should.

The annals of St. Neots mention Ivar has son of Ragnar Lodbrog and here is also the mention of the Raven banner that Lodbroks daughters had made.

The Danish text. I do not have it in English unfortunately.

Dansk:
"I slaget tog de (briterne) også det banner, som de kalder "Ravnen". Det hedder sig nemlig, at tre søstre af Inguar og Ubbe, døtre af Lodbrog, vævede dette banner og udfærdigede det i en middagstime. Man siger også, at hvert et slag, hvor dette hærtegn føres frem i spidsen, der da, om de skal vinde sejr, midt på tegnet viser sig ligesom en levende ravn, der flakser med vingerne, men skal de først siden ved lejlighed vinde sejren, da hænger fuglen nu lige ned. Det har ofte slået til."

In The cronicle of Saxo grammaticus he is one of Ragnar lodbroks sons along with Sigurd Worm in eye and Bjørn Ironside.

So there is a highly dissagrement of who Ivar was son of.
However an interesting theory I dont think it is likely they are one and the same Ivar and Imar, but it is easy to see why they would be mixt up in eachother. And ofcause it is not possible to rule out that they in fact are the same person.

I descend from Ivar by way of the Maxwell family. Sir Robert Maxwell of Calderwood.
Interesting stuff!

Iain Scott Gracie, I assume you mean that you are a descendant of Ivarr Gudrodson, king of Dublin as it is impossible to be a descendant of "Ivar the Boneless" owing to his lack of children?

Of course if "Ivar the Boneless" is just a literary construct that would also make it rather hard to claim descent from him :)

"Interesting", yes!

Aye, Ivar Gudrodson. I’m not sure if Ivar the boneless was seedless, people are not even sure if he was disabled from what I’ve read. Maybe he just had a condition. Who knows.
Are Ivar and Ivar 2 different people for sure?

Iain, the simple answer to your question is "no".
There is next to no evidence for either man. What we think we know is patchy and inconsistent. It seems safe enough to say there was at least one :)

Worth noting that when it comes to proof we should be asking about evidence they are the same rather than asking about evidence they are different.

And the answer is a qualified "Yes". There seems to have been competing propaganda in later times. Some of it says they were the same. Some of it says Ivar the Boneless left no descendants. There's no way to choose between the two claims because there is no actual evidence.