Charlemagne

Started by Private User on Sunday, September 18, 2011
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Almost no one has a "complete" tree going back even 10 generations, let alone 30, but it is helpful to look at the ones that we do think we know well. See the project at http://www.geni.com/projects/index/11399

If you look at the number of different ancestors in these mostly complete trees, it gives us at least a few data points for the amount of intermarriage (ancestor collapse). Some of the people with highest number of different ancestors at 10 generations are listed at http://www.geni.com/projects/Geni-Top-10-Lists/11937

I read your links Randy, interesting.

About Charlemagne, or Karl den store, as he's named in Sweden,
the minimum decendants today would be 1.5 miljon, the maximum
about 1.5 miljard, it's a huge diference, and as pointed out in your links,
interbreading and isolated areas are more likely to miss any direct linkage with him.

Rough calculation
Gen 30 : Two kids per generation, 1 miljard

Gen 40: 1.7 kids per generation, 1.5 miljon

But even if anyone today is related so doesn't it mean that his genes
are still left, example.
Generation 11
Your 10th cousin have the possibility of 1/ 2.097152 to share a common unusual gen.
Generation 21
Your 20th cousin only have 1/2199.023.255552
at generation 30 and up, it would be pointless to talk about a genetic inheritance.

Thanks for your comments. They are much appreciated. A lot of things we seem to do in genealogy seem pointless at times. If we are talking about inherited genes I did not go in that direction or I did not make it clear I was not going in that direction. My only complaint is that the probability formula, no matter even if presently it seems to match some genetic factors, the facts are it cannot continue to do so because the human numbers ultimately simply do not match. My point is if it was clear ... I prefer to stick now with the old fashion way of dealing with descent and laboriously place human names not numbers in the decent line. Maybe there is not genetic significance to my relationship to Charlemagne or anyone's present day descendants of Charlemagne only to say I know exactly... as far as we can trust records.... Where I am located on Charlemagne’s line and I can name names and not inaccurate population projections. As for the significance of genes.... I find it fascinating that I can trace the heredity of famous Generals like El Cid and numerous others to World War 2 General George Patton. What all these kings and generals have in common is great military ability and it runs directly in ancestral lines regardless of genetic makeup and each is a descendant of the other. I would venture to safely conclude that there is some link in the descent other than genetic and population factors. Look at this line and count the military genius of those in the line. Could you make some safe conclusions?

.

APPENDEX
1
Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar, Count of Valencia (1043 - 1099) “El Cid” is the 28th great grandfather of the present
Descendants of the Plantagenet’s, Beauforts, Stewarts, Grahams, Patton’s, Clicks, Pitts, and Biddles.
Cristina Rodriguez DE VIVAR (1077 - 1116)
Daughter of Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar, Prince of Valencia
Garcia VII Garcia KING OF NAVARRE (1110 - 1150)
Son of Cristina Rodriguez DE VIVAR
Blanca Garcia De NAVARRE
Daughter of Garcia VII Garcia KING OF NAVARRE
King García of Navarre, Ramírez "The Restorer" (- 1150)
Son of Blanca Garcia De NAVARRE
Blanche Ramírez PRINCESS OF NAVARRA (1188 - 1253)
Daughter of King García of Navarre, Ramírez "The Restorer"
Louis IX "the Saint" Capet KING OF FRANCE (1215 - 1270)
Son of Blanche Ramírez PRINCESS OF NAVARRA
Philip III Capet KING OF FRANCE (1245 - 1285)
Son of Louis IX "the Saint" Capet KING OF FRANCE
Philip IV KING OF FRANCE (1268 - 1314)
Son of Philip III Capet KING OF FRANCE
Princess Isabella De France (1292 - 1358)
Daughter of Philip IV KING OF FRANCE
Edward III Plantagenet KING OF ENGLAND (1312 - 1377) son of Princess Isabella De France
Prince and Knight John of Gaunt 1st Duke of Lancaster Plantagenet (1340 - 1398) son of Edward III Plantagenet KING OF ENGLAND
John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset (1373 - 1410) son of Prince and Knight John of Gaunt 1st Duke of Lancaster Plantagenet
Joan Beaufort, Queen Consort of the Scots (1404 - 1445) daughter of John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset
John Stewart (1440 - 1512)
Son of Joan Beaufort, Queen Consort of the Scots
John Stewart, 2nd Earl of Atholl (1478 - 1522)
Son of John Stewart
Lady Dorothea Ruthven of Avondale (1552 - 1627)
Daughter of John Stewart, 2nd Earl of Atholl
Margaret Ruthven, Countess of Montrose (1577 - 1618)
Daughter of Lady Dorothea Ruthven of Avondale
James Graham, 5th Earl and 1st Marquess of Montrose (1612 - 1650) son of Margaret Ruthven, Countess of Montrose
Lord, John Graham (1630 - 1668)
Son of James Graham, 5th Earl and 1st Marquess of Montrose
Graham, William Provost James Graham (1648 - 1751) son of Lord, John Graham
Christopher Graham (1670 - 1746) son of Graham, William Provost James Graham
Rebecca Jane (Graham) Walkup (1742 - 1769)
Daughter of Christopher Graham
Florence Graham (1760 - 1840)
Daughter of Rebecca Jane (Graham) Walkup
Samuel Patton (1788 - 1870)
Son of Florence Graham
Nancy A. Patton (1805 - 1890)
Daughter of Samuel Patton
Eventually this leads to my 5th cousin General George S Patton.
Many of the first and second cousins of this line are famous Generals: e.g. “Europe best Knight—Marshall”. General Andrew Lewis, General Hugh Mercer, King Richard the Lion Hearted. Philip II Augustus of France. And yes… some cousins and my 35th Great Grandfather Charlemagne. Unfortunately I did not inherit their military genius.

My original article had reference to this article: Everyone is descended from Charlemagne - Colleen Genealogy, http://www.colleengenealogy.net/everyonecharlemagne.html_br (accessed October 4, 2014).

A wayward footnote: General George S Patton was not the only General in the Patton family.

Yes, I agree, there's a pattern that is inherited as a possibility of, "greatness" in many areas, where genes are not the only factor or make a less single contribution than the pattern itself.

To really understand this we would have to see to the brains function in another way, how it´s configured at a more basic threading order that would contribute for a certain specific trait.

The brain is a sum of more than certain genes, heredity and environment are just some factors, but what I am thinking of is a key function behind, just as compared with different computer operative system, some are better at performing certain tasks, others others, there is differences in creativeness and the ability to think abstractly which is independent of education, it either are higly developed or not and are related with specific forms of intelligence.

For example, all the mayor religions are created by people who follow a direct lineage from one to another, which is unlikely due to chance thou the same line also represents all major rulers-4500 BC until today.

The fact that statistically we all should have a common ancestor in this same period, is irrelevant in this context, because intermarriage along with this line probably amplifies the characteristics for just a smaller number of individuals than for the majority walking on the side of them.
A pesant from an isolated village is therefore un very unlikely candidate for creating a new religion or making a bigger path out from one, then an decendant to several king and queens.

This has nothing to do with moral or ethics, values and believes, so even if I rather would think that everyone has the same possibilities, because that would be just and fare, the life itself couldn't care more less of that kind of thoughts.

mine is through persons like birger jarl and so on.

Charlemagne and Hildegarde are my 34th g-grandparents through Louis I.
Too funny.
Hello cousins from all over the world - I thought I was just Swedish!
Diane Lindquist Antrim

Happy Birthday Charlemagne !

Charlemagne is my 31st Great Grandfather

I don't pay any attention to otger than direct relatives in this tree. And of course, a 31st generation means lots of blood combinations. We are definitely a melting pot. Our last name is a mere accident and holds without repeats in a minimal value of our personal genetic combination.

my 33rd great grandfather

Charlemagne is my 3rd cousin 4 times removed's husband's wife's 4th Great Grandfather's wife's 18th great Uncle's wife's 7th Great grandfather.

Greetings! It was fun reading some of your thoughts, cousins.

A relationship to Charlemagne isn't that unusual, but knowing the 33 or 35 names of ancestors separating oneself from Charlemagne IS fairly rare. The span of time seems great, but how many times have 33 people been in line (cue) in front or behind you? Not that many lives separate us, really.

I'm still fairly astonished by all this.

Regarding the "greatness gene" part of the discussion:

If there were a "greatness gene," Charlemagne was also a product of it -- a "carrier" among many descendants, living at the same time, of far more ancient progenitors. Whatever 'it' is (if there is an 'it' at all) almost certainly didn't begin with him.

From what I've read, it seems that Charlemagne was placed in circumstances that suited his proclivities. I'd like to think that if "Chuck" were born a baker, the cakes in the year 800 would have been amazing. But that could be completely wrong. It may be an all-or-nothing proposition. If you have that gene, you either rule, or languish under a bridge somewhere.

Since I neither rule, nor languish (except on Mondays) and I'm a descendant of "Chuck" along several lines, the second theory is probably wrong, or fails to account for other extraneous factors.

Though I'm not engaged in forging an empire (or baking, for that matter) I am very adept at what I do. If that's a result, in even a small measure, to genes, then I say thank you to Chuck and all the other great grands to the nth power.

I found three ancestral connections to Charlemagne and am trying to figure out how to get the data right. I traced back to Louis I, Pepin Carloman, kling of Italy, and his daughter, so it may be true that a there are a lot of connections there for everyone.

Would be nice to see your paths, cousins :) To compare the lines. https://www.geni.com/path/Saga-Rewell+is+related+to+Charlemagne?fro...

32th GG. Greetings from Finland.: Ja tähän löpertäen mahdollisimman paljon ääkkösiä. Terveiset kesäisestä Suomesta jäätelöä syöden - Suomesta, hyvää yötä.

Jag har själv här på geni flera olika linjer till denna mannen, men just den här linjen har varit likadan sedan jag postade här förra gången, många andra linjer har dock ändrat sig.

Hälsningar från Sverige och ett regnigt Göteborg!

Charlemagne is Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson's 32nd great grandfather!
https://www.geni.com/path/Ulf-Martinsson+is+related+to+Charlemagne?...

Thank you Annie. Translation:
On Charlemagne, his descendants and ancestry listen very interesting program on the history and genealogy on France Culture http://www.franceculture.com/personne-andre-burguiere.html-0 see . For my part I strongly doubt of Greek descent from Charlemagne. Yours

Hello all! Charlemagne is my 33rd great grandfather. I do not care which language you write in. I cannot speak French very well but I can read some and what i can't read, I can find a translator. I am French through my father's side so I probably should learn it anyway.

Bill, don't be too sure you *aren't* related to Big Charlie. Then as now royals and other VIPs married all over the place for reasons of dynastic expediency. The "Byzantine" Empire (they just called themselves the "Roman Empire" even though they were and spoke Greek) remained a going concern until 1453, and people married into and out of the various royal houses. There was also a time (1204) when Western "Crusaders" crashed the kingdom and held it for two or three generations, adding more Western connections in the process.

If you want a real hoot, look at how Yaroslav the Wise, of Kiev, distributed his daughters. One (Anastasia) went to a guy who had a claim on the throne of Hungary, and made it good (Andrew I). One (Elisaveta alias Ellisif) went to an ambitious and wealthy Norse warlord (Harald Sigurdsson, alias Harald Hardraada) who fought his way to the crown of Norway, and tried to claim both Denmark and England as well. One (Anna) was carefully packaged and sent COD to France, where she became the second wife of Henri I Capet. And one - maybe - was married to the lawful heir to the English throne (Edward the Exile, whose wife Agatha has never been satisfactorily accounted for except that she was from an important Eastern European family).

Agatha never became Queen of England, because the Godwins (rival claimants) got rid of Edward as soon as he set foot back in England. But her daughter Margaret *did* become Queen of Scotland, and one of her granddaughters finally did get an English crown.

Charlemagne He is my 36th GG on this line

Everybody's, by this time. :-D (My 34th, probably several different ways.)

Check out Christian Settipani on Charlemagne descent

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~medieval/addcharlENG.pdf

charlemagne aataqqiima nuliata aappaata aataqqaeerivaa. imatut allallugu aataqqeeq-qeeq-qeeq-qeeq x30

Hello all....I'm Charlemangnes 35th Great grandson

Charlemagne my 33rd great grandfather according to Geni.

Hey, Charlemagne is my 31st great grandpa too! See the resemblance to my picture!

Charlemagne is my 35th great grandfather too.
Charlemagne

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