Catharina Mare - Is this Ignace's sister or his daughter?

Of course, I didn't think. But please not wife of ___. "add this person" sounds good.

Easiest just to leave the box unfilled!

Yes, and not to create someone when the person is unknown anyway.

From the discussions we have

1. http://sa-passenger-list.za.net/huguenotsettlers.php cites a MARIA (not Catherine) Mare as coming with Ignace c 1706.

2. [S325] ......Ignatius het c1705 na die Kaap gekom met sy kinders Catharina en Ignatius uit sy vorige huwelik.

Do we disregard 2 as not enough to create Ignatius i as full sister of Catherine? Or is the likelyhood zero that there was an Ignatius i given Ignace/Ignatius ii bapt. 14 Aug 1729?

Just for interest sake - a missing daughter also (probably)

Huwelikstatus

Volgens Kannemyer het Ignacé ".... as jonkman in die begin van 1700 na Suid-Afrika uitgewyk....". De Villiers/Pama skryf die volgende omtrent Ignacé:- "Franse vlugteling, wewenaar van Calabria". Die Hugenote Stigting bevestig sy wewenaarskap en sê verder dat uit sy eerste huwelik, blykbaar in Europa, is twee dogters gebore maar net een is bekend. Die bekende dogter, Catharina, is op 22/10/1713 in Kaapstad met Jan Janzoon/Janse van Vuuren getroud.

The reference at http://sa-passenger-list.za.net/huguenotsettlers.php doesn't offer any supporting reference either - - but as there has not been a later mention of a Maria maybe the Catharina is more likely. Having said that there is no further mention of an Ignatius Jnr. other than the child born later after the 2nd marriage.

So have the records been interpreted incorrectly? Do we have
A. Ignatius who went to SA as a widower with 2 children - the brother and Sister
b1. Ignatius who married Susanna van Vuuren
b2. Catharina who married Johannes van Vuuren

Which is what we have always had but with dates attributed to Ignatius Jnr. instead of Ignace Snr.? And then if we were to find the bapt. entry in 1686
- Ardennes, Montherme, France would we have the father of A. Ignatius Paulus?

I think we need two things -

1. Something concrete that says that Ignatius/Ignace wet to SA from Calabria, Italy with 2 children named Ignatius and Catharina OR Maria.

2. Information form the 1686 - Ardennes, Montherme, France baptism.

I don't know! Now that I have written all of that what do we know about the death of Ignace in 1730 - what is the source of that information? He certainly died AFTER 14 Aug 1729 (Baptism of Ignatius) - but I see no source for his date of death.

I think we are tied up in knots!!

I see that a place of burial is given - Tygervallei
What do we know about this?

The Ignace who married Susanna van Vuuren was a widower at the time thus it was not likely to be his son who married her - the son would have been 'jongman'

The ONLY contemporaneous documentary source we have is the marriake entry: '1706 7 Febr Ignatius Mares van Calabria wedr: met Susanna van Veuren van Cabo jongd:'

Also, he died after the 1733 Monsterrol: See the document attached to his profile.

It is likely that he was buried on his farm 'De Lange Fonteijn':
Old Stellenbosch Freehold, Volume 2:282 Marais, Ignatius. De Lange Fontein, at Elsjes Kraal, Cape District 14.10.1714 - Botha, Graham: 'The French Refugees at the Cape p 117 - 124'.

Lastly, http://sa-passenger-list.za.net/huguenotsettlers.php is totally unreliable. We don't know where the information came from. I've picked up quite a few mistakes when their info is compared to contemporaneous transcripts of passenger lists, like those given in Botha. Some of their lists are a complete thumb suck, the original list having been lost.

Even the contemporaneous lists are not reliable - they were written down before the ship sailed and one can't be sure that the people actually embarked. See Harry Booyens, 'God Bless the Good Ship China' on http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/ui47.htm

Can we not stop guessing, and go with the one source we have?

I agree Jansi and I think in the end this will boil down to supposition based on a few known facts.

OK - so what have we got based on the only sources available?

- the marriage entry 1706 which established that Ignatius came from Calibra, (it seems likely that this is Italy. We can only speculate how he came to be there), and that he married Susanna van Veuren.

- Monsterollen VC 50 1733 # 26.jpg of 1733 - which established that Ignatius Marrais (Sic) and Susanna were alive in 1733. Listed next to them is Jan van Veuren and Catharina Marrais (Sic) suggesting there is a connection between them. Is this a transcription? If so who did it? We can see what the Marre/Marrais confusion arises.

What we need:
- something that answers the original question - was Catharina Ignatius's daughter or his sister? The age difference suggests that she could be his daughter. There are references from various places with no sources mentioning that Ignatius/Ignace went to SA a widower in 1705 with 2 children - Ignatius and Catharina.

- information about the baptism 1686 - Ardennes, Montherme, France

The date of death 7/2/1730 on the profile - where did that come from I wonder. As it is obviously wrong I have removed it but added it in the notes.

Other documents we have where he is mentioned -

Baptism Register, Palmkronieke I Baptisms, Johannes, de Vader Ignatiùs Marree, de Moeder Sùsanna van Vùer, d' getùygen Jacobùs van As met Helena Schalk, der 24 7br 1708.

Drakenstein Heemkring, compilers, Drakenstein I Baptisms., CD-ROM (Paarl) Drakenstein Heemkring, 2006 , Baptism Register, Anno 1716; Den 9de Febr; Gerrit, soon van Jan Janse van Veùren en Catharina Marai. Getùijgen Sùsanna Janse Van Veùren en Ignatius Marai.

Ignatius Marre or Mare is listed on the following inventories
- http://databases.tanap.net/mooc/

MOOC8/2.22 1708
MOOC8/2.24 1708 - his mother-in-law's inventory
MOOC10/1.61 1710
MOOC10/1.68 1711
MOOC10/1.74 1712
MOOC8/2.102 1714
MOOC8/3.15 1715
MOOC8/4.122 1726

A niggle for me is how the two images that have been loaded are so similar in age - at the moment they are confusing as Susanna is sporting the same image as Ignatius.

More questions than answers I am afraid!

I also think that the Waldesian article written by by Andre Martinaglia is interesting - if you are not an Ancestry24 member and want a copy of it let me know - june@cjunebarnes.co.uk

I'll see if I can get the grondbrief from the Hugenote-Gedenkmuseum, Franschhoek. I know his signature is on a document they have there, I've seen it. Maybe that will help us.

I wish we could find a will, or inventory!

:-)

Protestant thought not quite as non-existent in Calabria Italy as Alexander points out.Nor was it quite the religious or political backwater he makes it to be.
as example: Pope Pius V:

When he was Grand Inquisitor, he sent Catholic troops to kill 2,000 Waldensian Protestants in Calabria in southern Italy.

Famous etching
Massacre of the protestants in Calabria
www.loc.gov/pictures/item/95504263/

Woodcut not etching .Sorry.

Having read all these interesting comments & researches, I'm now wondering about my "ancestry"!...I have an Anna Elizabeth Mare born c.Dec 1710/Jan 1711, who married a Pieter Delport...Anna Elizabeth, is supposedly the daughter of Ignace..I also have Francina, born 27.11.1718, married to Pierre du Plessis, & also listed as Ignace's daughter!!

Fascinating stuff ineed:
" In 1560, the village of Guardia Piemontese (CS) was the site of a massacre of Protestants who had fled from the Alps, known as Waldensians. The event is commemorated in the Piazza della Strage (Square of the Slaughter) and by the name of the 14th century Porta del Sangue (Gate of Blood), through which the blood of rebels reportedly flowed to the valley below." http://bleedingespresso.com/calabria/history-of-calabria

Peter Dennis...Gone fishing!- do add the point to the Project Page, where we're summarizing the debate.

Peter

This massacre of Waldesians you mention occurred in 1560. The survivors of the massacre had to convert to Roman Catholicism. Marriages between two previously descended from Waldensians were strictly forbidden. Contrary to what you may think, the Waldesians were refugees and were severely persecuted in Calabria. This episode ended in 1561.

If what you suggest is that strictly speaking Protestant thought did make its way to Calabria, then granted, it did. However, the context is that Calabria was where Protestant thought was exterminated with force in 1561! These are the facts...

If you are suggesting that Ignace may have been descended from this Waldesian community that was exterminated or assimilated into the Calabrian Roman Catholic citizenry back in 1561, then alright. I can accept this as a real possibility, although it leaves a number of questions unanswered. Most importantly, how did he manage to be the only ex-Waldesian from Calabria to find passage to the Cape. The comments here never cease to amaze me!

What specifically amazes you Alexander? Are we not all engaging in an exercise to find sourced information to establish the best possible scenario? - and in so doing learning about stuff we knew nothing about before - in and around the subject? - engaging a wide cross section of people on all sorts of levels?

Added a doc to the project page about Waldesians

I'm amazed at the level of interest and great debate going on! Keep it up, it makes history come alive!!

:-) hopefully we will come to some conclusions!

@June
I did not expect the comment that claimed that Calabria was a backwater. Calabrian communities are wealthy in traditions and ancient customs long lost to many other regions within Italy, not even to mention Western Europe.

The Waldesians did not survive 1561 as a religious community in Calabria. What does this tell us?

The fact that they were massacred IN Calabria leaves no doubt in my mind that the region was intolerant of Protestant thought and that the massacre is evidence that Ignace most likely did not come from Calabria..

Pretty amazing to me how the same event can be perceived quite differently by different individuals.

If these massacres in Calabria ended in 1561, that doesn't tie in with Ignace, who was born circa 1686......So either the family Mare remained there, & Ignace left later down their line, for reasons of...who knows..Or he was a Catholic, but not particularly religious, & converted to Protestanism for pragmatic reasons when he emigrated...or he wasn't from Calabria after all!...He's a bit of a mystery character anyway....Some of us have been down this route with the du Plessis lines!....If only records had been kept in the same way that they seem to have been in America!

We are certainly not the first to debate/look at this question!

It looks to me as if it has been assumed way back that Catherina was Ignatius's sister and that we will never know until the baptism entries can be seen - IF they can be seen.

So - can we establish what we can from what we DO know, and does that mean that the supposition that has been handed down from one researcher/genealogy/gedcom to the next (that they were siblings) is the one we use? Or do we have them linked with a note that says that the relationship between them is not established?

See the thread at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SOUTH-AFRICA/2001-08/...

The source/root of the mention of the baptism 1686 - Ardennes, Montherme, France is frustratingly absent!.

Thanks Jansi for adding all those docs!

The Woodcut Peter mentioned at http://www.ancientfaces.com/research/photo/1211718/massacre-of-the-... - the tag at the URL is Protestants--Punishment & torture--Italy--Calabria--1500-1700.
Massacres--Italy--Calabria--1500-1700.
so not entirely outside the dates we are looking at.

There is a thesis available that some may want to look at - 260+ pages! http://sro.sussex.ac.uk/2340/1/Tarrant,_Neil_James.pdf

See also http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft958009jk;chu... - Inquisition and Society in the Kingdom of Valencia, 1478-1834 - heavy reading but interesting. Look at p 293 - I know this is Spain but ....

http://thebibleisnotholy.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/a-companion-to... page 25

There is LOADS out there!

I am thinking that Lorna in the Rootsweb discussion is the Lorna mentioned in
on the First Fifty Years Project - http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g5/p5206.htm

[S325] Baptism Register, Palmkronieke I Baptisms, Lorna: 7.2.1706 trou "Ignatius Maree van Calabria wedr: met Susanna van Veuren van Cabo jongd:" Sy was d/v Gerrit Jansz van Vuuren en Susanna Jacobs. Ignatius het c1705 na die Kaap gekom met sy kinders Catharina en Ignatius uit sy vorige huwelik. 19.5.1707 vra Ignatius Marre van dondregt (sic) verlof om na Drakenstein te verhuis. Sy land van herkoms is nog omstrede. Langefontein, Kuilsrivier het aan hom behoort. Hy koop St Omar, Dal Josephat in 1724 van Armand Veron.

I had a quick look at the French site geneanet and found the following. There appears to have been a family with the name de la Mare de Salgas also written Marre de Salgas.

de la MARE de SALGAS 1514 - 1514 Sauve Gard, Languedoc-Roussillon, France

de la MARE de la SALGAS 1515 - 1889 Saint-André-de-Valborgne Gard, Languedoc-Roussillon, France

MARE 1535 - 1535 Saint-André-de-Valborgne Gard, Languedoc-Roussillon, France

de la MARE de SALGUAS 1560 - 1560 Saint-André-de-Valborgne Gard, Languedoc-Roussillon, France

MARE 1570 - 1629 Sumène Gard, Languedoc-Roussillon, France

DE LA MARE DE SAL GUAS 1645 - 1645 Saint-André-de-Valborgne Gard, Languedoc-Roussillon, France

de LA MARE de SALZAS 1646 - 1646 Saint-André-de-Valborgne Gard, Languedoc-Roussillon, France

http://www.geneanet.org/search/?name=MAR%C9&country=FRA&res...

As to Ignace Mare's possible fath-'Ignace'/'Ignatius' doesn't seem to be a Protestant name.My wife is of 1/2 Irish-Catholic descent & asserts that St.Ignatius is a modern Catholic saint,not part of older tradition.At same time,Protestant zealot John Knox began his career as a Catholic priest! A Sabra(Israeli) I know spoke of a Brazilian Catholic he met on his travels,who observed his actual Jewish faith secretly in his cellar,his own family was unaware of this!

The documents I gave above are interesting on the conversion of Protestants to Catholicism - worth looking at!

Such interesting stuff we're unearthing.

St Ignatius wasn't an angle I'd thought of.

Yes, the de Salgas name is pointed to by Pama too -. Jansi has been looking at that too. I'll look for the discussion link.