Askold A Varangian, Semi-legendary ruler of Kiev - Unsourced Relationships

-Rurik, I saw that you took away his father Olof, but kept his mother.

The whole Idea with the name for Russia goes back to the Roslagen, that's the area where they closest came from, why not change the name on Russia to? Ruriksland sound nice, to bad that not country has profiles here on Geni, isn't it. ; )

The Fins calls Sweden "Ruotsi" but Russia "Venäjä".
Icelandic folks did once in their beginning call Russia for "mikill Svíþjóð",
that's mean Big Sweden! The naming of the land really do point out
who to blame.

Ulf, i did not "take away" Rurik's father, i asked the Curators to restore the profile to it's previous condition.
I have typed up sections of Rurik and Umila's profiles to describe where the connection between them comes from. You connected Olaf to Rurik based on another collaborative website. Nowhere have i seen anyone link Umila to a husband named Olaf.

I understand that Russia has it's name from the Rus but scholars have various theories on the meaning and origin of "Rus". Rurik may well be from Roslagen, i am not saying he isn't but it is up to you to prove it.

Rurik's profile currently gives birth location as "Scandinavia" which covers every location that i've seen suggested, from Lagoda in the east to Denmark in the West and everything north. Surely you can see this is a logical compromise with no other proof available.

Your talk of animals and posting links to profiles with the name Dyre aren't helpful.

Direct translations of personal names to other languages doesn't imply anything about a specific person and I can give you numerous links to profiles on Geni of people named Moes that have nothing to do with me or my family.

It would be far more helpful if you shared with us your opinion/knowledge/sources on whether Askold was a son of Rurik? Was Dir a son of Askold? Were Dir and Askold the same person?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Askold_and_Dir

Johanna Elisabet Nilsen it is up to you to get the actual sources for the claim that Rurik was son of Olof (or that Olof was a co-ruler wiwth Emund Eriksson).

Note: Rurik's profile gives an approximate birth date (ca 830) that is the same as the (equally approximate) birth date of Emund Eriksson. Also, the Wikipedia summaries of the sagas and sources claim that Emund's brother was named Bjørn, not Olof.

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Anundsson
" Han var troligen bror och samregent med Olof. "
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olof_(sveakung_854)
His father
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anund_Uppsale
His father
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Bj%C3%B6rnsson
"Båda Erik Björnssons söner Björn på Håga och Anund Uppsale"
His father
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B6rn_J%C3%A4rnsida

Well, there's nothing left for ME to prove, there is of course a lack of information regarding all of this mentioned profiles.

An estimation of dates of birth just to see IF it would be possible,
and using the fact that they often would have been around 15-16 when they produced their first son, and yes, it's the oldest son that keeps the power.

Sigurd Ring Died around 770
his son
Ragnar Lodbrok born around 765
his son
Björn Järnsida born around 781
his son
Erik Björnsson around 796-800 ( Yes, also young, but they rule...)
his sons
Anund Uppsale 816
and
Olof Ring 832 mentioned 852 as the co-ruler)
his son
Rurik, Must then most likely have been born around 840. not 800!
Mentioned 862 and as dead 879.
Ruriks son Igor, or Ingvar, (born 875, dead 945).

The other Hrörek from Danmark is then a cousin of Rurik,
make sense.

Then again, in order to grab power you certainly had to be royal, otherwise you would be killed in this time period.
In order to direct warriors from Scandinavia to fight for you, you would also
have to be royal, (belonging to this Ring family ).

I really can't understand how anyone can imagine that ANYBODY could do this? When we do not have single bit of information, we then must look at the whole picture, and in that view Rurik's family emerges.

With patronymika
Ragnar Sigurdsson (Lodbroke)
Björn Ragnarsson (Järnsida)
Erik Björnsson
Anund Eriksson (Uppsale)
Erik Anundsson
and his brother
Olof Anundsson
Rurik Olofsson

I do not find any evidence that Rurik really was born around 800, that is just one estimation in the Nestor chronicle that was written in the year 1113, 234 years after Ruriks death, so he could very well have been born in the 840's and that is more credible as a younger man who is the son of a ruler king would do more to prove himself a man at an earlier stage in life. The legend says that representatives of various tribes crossed the baltic sea to a viking tribe called "Rus" and begged them for help. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea

The only place a tribe would be called Rus, is in Roslagen and without the leaders approval they could not do anything, because in that area in that time they were a part of a naval fleet ruled by the kings in Svitjod, marked as yellow in the map below showing that it still was the same in the 12th_century, following a tradition that started well before the 500 century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedes_(Germanic_tribe)#/media/File:Sc...

So Harald, "it is up to you to get the actual sources". No, it's obvious not up to me. I have shown one of the very few candidates for the post of being Rurik's father, there really aren't any other what I know about.
But I'm fascinated over the large amount of profiles that has been put up here on Geni with if not less, so no sources at all! I'm starting to wonder what makes some of them stay glued on?

Private User thanks for your most imaginative reconstruction.

Given that at the time of Harald Hårfagre the average Norwegian kingdom was about the size of a county (fylke), there was no lack of royalty to choose from - most of which is totally undocumented.

"When we do not have single bit of information, we then must look at the whole picture..." no. When we do not have a single bit of information, we must admit that we do not know.

To not know and to not be able to proof, isn't the same thing and nothing mention that they went to vikings in Denmark or Norway, it says clearly that the vikings were "Rus", pointing to Svitjod, in nowadays Sweden.

In that area we also do not have several kings to choose from, just a few and by them we only have 3 lines to choose from.

Erik Refilsson who was succeeded by his two cousins Anund Uppsale and his brother Björn på Håga who reigned together in Svitjod according to Hervarar saga.

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B6rn_J%C3%A4rnsidas_%C3%A4tt

The tradition was, that no one could claim to be king if he didn't had lines back to Oden, just as the other Scandinavian kings in both Denmark and Norway, am I wrong or? No, I really do not believe that.

At this time, rulers in D and N focused more on the west, leaving the swedes to focus on the east, making it more than likely that the father to Rurik also would be from Svitjod.

Harald, I agree. If primary sources do not name Rurik's father then anything else is a guess or theory. And if there is more than one guess, and no definite way to choose among them, then we do not know.

Look at this 2000 thread from SGM:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/r...

Roderick Stuart in Royalty for Commoners says Rurik was the son of Halfdan, Markgraf of Frisia. Stewart Baldwin ridicules RFC, but I think the answer might lie in this general direction.

Brynjulf Langballe thinks Rurik was probably son of Bjørn Ironside because he was in Gardarike (Russia) already.

Both interesting theories but nothing to prove or disprove any of them.

You can be sure of one thing, if Rurik wouldn't had this lineage, they surely would have replaced him as soon as possible, according to the vast majority of historians, both in Sweden and internationally so was Rurik from Sweden. A contemporary danish viking named Rörik is believed to have conquered Friesland about 850 (would have had his hand full of other things to do), and Hrörek of Lejre lived under in the period between late 600 and 700, or at least 100 years to early. And I do not think that the wends, in northern poland and germany are right, because they wouldn't have called themselves rus.

Ulf, we agree in part and disagree in part. Certainly Rurik must have belonged to a family that claimed descent from Odin (or he had a skald who could reasonably claim it on his behalf).

In the link I posted Stewart Baldwin makes the point that there are chronological problems with identifying Rurik of Novgorod with Rörik of Friesland (even if Rörik was expelled c855). Absolutely. I agree. However, that doesn't mean there wasn't another member of the same dynasty with the same name. That seems likely to me.

But this is the problem with all the theories. They must remain just theories. There is nothing about any of them that is overwhelmingly convincing. Something that makes intuitive sense to me might not make sense to you.

That is so Justin, a lot of the profiles are from sagas, semi legendary or pure fictional persons that might have existed. But I do indeed see profiles that are really lacking even that to source them up, here on Geni.

One easy solution to Ruriks father would have been to set up a simple
profile named, "Father of Rurik" (possible from the lineage of Björn Järnsida). That's it. ; )

Private User A "father of Rurik" profile (with no parents) makes sense.

I pretty sure he had a father, just like everybody else...
The meaning would be to point out the direction of "most likely" ancestry,
hopefully to prevent future bad merges, and unimaginable lines that have no bearing at all.

I really want to prevent things like this where there are e.g. 6 parents, folk need guiding, too many cooks spoils the soup.

Torberg Arnesson Giske

If anybody else can present a credible father to Rurik, just do it.

Private User, no one is suggesting Rurik did not have a father.

Grand Duke of Novgorod Rurik's profile has a Curator note (dated 28/4/15) stating "The father of Rurik is unknown." As that did not stop you from connecting him to Olaf a place holder was created, Unknown father of Rurik, Varangian, with a Curator note "The father of Rurik is not know[n]".

Then the obvious place to discuss the identity of the father would be the Discussions Tab of that profile, the profile itself is locked up tight because if it was not then any user could come along and edit/merge it with any identity they wished.

Torberg Arnesson Giske does not have 6 parents, he has 6 profiles attached to him which require merging feel free to do that yourself, it is one of the easiest ways to help clean up Geni, one father is an MP should be your guide.

I hate to sound self centered but would anyone care to discuss the relationships between Rurik and Askold and whether Askold and Dir are the same person and how we should present it on Geni?

Personally, i think Askold and Dir should be merged (i cannot do this as both are MPs) and the resulting profile disconnected from Rurik.

I thought we were done with that. The Primary Chronicle names them as different people. It's just a theory that they are different names for the same man. There is no compelling reason to merge them. It doesn't achieve anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Askold_and_Dir

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=8072

There is also a theory that Askold and Dir were the same as Hasting and Bjørn Ironside, but it's just a theory.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medi...

With Rurik's father unknown, there is no reason to link him to Askold -- even if Askold really was a grandson of Ragnar Lodbrok.

If you play with the different theories you could end up with fantasy, far-removed from the sources.

Here, you could end up with Rurik the son of Bjørn Ironside, but Bjørn Ironside the same as Askold, who was Rurik's lieutenant.

So we need to disconnect Askold from his "father" Rurik and his "son" Dir.

I think that would require a Curator to achieve, further i can't see any reason to link Malk of Lyubech, prince of the Drevlians as a son of Dir.

Before you disconnect Malk probably should do a bit of research to figure out where the idea comes from.

Remember to leave links in the About Me so that the relationships (both documented-but-non-biological and hypothetical-but-undocumented) can be followed..... apart from that, happy to see the breaking!