Regina van Rapenberg van Guinea, SM/PROG - mtDNA M30c

And wrt to the M30 and M33 lines, that one can easily be solved by noting that:

Magdalena Maria Alida Wylde, c3d1

was born 1840 - while her father was born 1746 (aged 94 at birth) and his second wife and her alleged mother, died in 1813 - 27 years before her birth. That tree therefore is incorrect and does not go to Bort (except if via another route...). Will try and sort out her tree.

..YES, she was b3c3d1, not a b generation at all...

and her mtDNA prog is Catharina van Bengale

Returning to Regina vRvG (this should really be 2 different discussion threads).

I've managed to (prospectively) identify the FTDNA descendant who is L0a1b2a. He is the son of Esther Robina Janse van Rensburg.

Will contact him and see if I can persuade him to add his results to Geni.
In the meantime - perhaps some of you sleuths (Jan?) would like to help verify his line.

Great... will try ^^ - always worth it.

Tolerate me. I refer to Jan`s comment On Hilda Victoria Scott Hayward.: There are so many successive Regina's in the first part of the tree that there can be no doubt about who their Grandmother was. I think and am will come out that Regina van Rapenberg was the mother
of Jannetjie Bort. I know they were brought from Guinea. But we have to remember that slaves were sold like cattle. They originate from one place and was sold at the market in Guinea.
I think we should study FIRSTFIFTYYEARS again

Dries, I am agree with your line... I have removed the other matches and your match is the only one remaining...

Ian... initial feedback: Daniel Jacobus Muller had 3 wives. I am not disputing the current line, but I think by completing the lines of his other wives would give us more 'insight' fwiw.

Private User - having investigated the tree of Esther Robina Janse van Rensburg
- yes, it does go to Regina van Rapenberg van Guinea and after loading applicable DNs and completing the whole tree, I am happy regarding the mtDNA traceable part as correct.

However, there is something important to note here - this tree goes through Lijsbeth Jansz van de Caap, SM whom was married to both Loos and de Jonker according to Geni, but again I wonder if the mtDNA results is not guiding us to two different profiles for 2 different women.

Referring to my earlier posts (the about section of the Jonker child profile and the other N1a results), this therefore provides even more evidence that there were 2 (E)lis(a)beth Jansens of different heritage. In this case it seems that the L0 line is for the Lisbeth Janz whom married Loos, while the other result is for the one (Elizabeth Jansen?) whom married de Jonker. Futhermore it would also suggest that Bort is not the mtDNA descendant of Regina vRvG. To summarise:

Lijsbeth Jansz van de Caap, SM / Regina vRvG- L0

Elizabeth Jansen -N1a (i created the profile for illustrative purposes only, as the mother of the Jonker children, but have not linked the children)

Catharina van Bengale, SM/PROG -M33

Jannetje Bort, SM -M30c1 - not a descendant of any of the above, but possibly from a Regina

As you have put it correctly, time will tell... we need more tests to proof/disproof right?

I'm not following the point being made with the creation of the duplicate Elizabeth Jansen - for Lijsbeth Jansz van de Caap, SM?
It isn't a good idea to leave unsourced profiles for demonstration purposes or to make a link we'd like to be there - the potential that they're taken seriously and merged in its large. Please don't do it.

*is

Thanks for looking at Esther Janse van Rensburg's tree Jan!

Sounds like the best thing to do for now would be to list Regina v.R.v.G (on the S.A. MtDNA Female Progenitor's Project) with 2 predicted Haplos - as we have done for Catharina van Malabar).

With a nested listing of Catharina Loos ( L0a1b2a) -and descendant Esther J.V Rensburg,
And then Regina Christina Andriesen de Jonker ( N1a ) - and descendant Hilda Victoria Scott-Hayward.

How does that sound Sharon?

I'm going to wait on this one - There are presently no sources added to validate the line connecting to Esther. I've just had to disconnect the other line I linked in as a result of this Discussion, having contacted the manager, because the connecting line was built on assumptions and extrapolations but not sources. A bit embarrassing.
So, this time, let's wait for sources to be added that validate the line, before we assume the paper trail is correct without solid evidence.
There is no reason to believe it isn't - but if we're going to use it to log a discrepancy - let's first rule out the most obvious possibility.

That sounds like a good idea Sharon.
I'm going to email some info to you regarding the J.van Rensburg line that I'd like you to see -hope your address is still the same.

Ian, my computer was recently stolen in a house burglary - so I've received your email; but can't reply. I agree with you.

Oh no... sorry to hear about your computer Sharon!

I have added in the missing sources for Esther Robina Janse van Rensburg line (including the 4 children listed on Esther's DN). So now we have the the entire line verified back to Regina van Guinea.

Will wait a few days hoping for a response from the FTDNA Cape Dutch Project descendant. But if we don't hear from him - I feel we could still list him anonymously on the S.A. mtDNA F.P Project - with a link to FTDNA project as evidence of his DNA results.

Thanks for those sources Ian. Go ahead and add that line on the DNA project - or if you battle then remind me to do it this weekend, including a Curator note that logs the two possibilities.

On the other FTDNA line - the sourcing issue remains.
Is the tree that you sent me - presently on a secret or public FTDNA group? If the latter, it's already in the public domain and they won't have a problem with us replicating it to check the sources. If the former, I think that the pre 20th century part of the line is likely to be on geni or My Heritage already - and we may be able to source and reference that bit?

Unfortunately the FTDNA tree I sent you is private Sharon.
So we do not have confirmation anywhere in the public domain that the Janse van Rensburg who is listed as L0a1b2a on FTDNA's Cape Dutch Project -.is a son of Esther Robina Janse van Rensburg
(even though you and I can see from the private tree that he clearly is!).

On reviewing that line I've also realised that although we have Esther's birth date of 13 Oct 1912 from her husband's DN, we do not yet have a birth/baptism for her or any other record confirming she is the daughter of claimed parents.

Help with that would be appreciated.
Hopefully this is not all futile if we can't obtain permission to make the private info public (beyond our semi-disclosure here).

Good news! I have been given permission to name Nicolaas Frans Janse van Rensburg as the descendant who tested L0a1b2a on FTDNA. Hoping we can get his results uploaded to Geni in due course.

That's great!

A big thank you to Private User for specially joining Geni in order to share her mtDNA results with us!
Her descent from Regina Christina van Ahrendtsdorf triangulates with Nicolaas Frans Janse van Rensburg's descent from Catharina Groenewald, b1 to confirm that Lijsbeth Jansz van de Caap, SM was definitely L0a1b2a.
Another milestone in S.A. genealogy.

That means that if Hilda Victoria Scott-Hayward could be confirmed N1a1a2 (as claimed) - then there is a biological discontinuity somewhere between Hilda Victoria and Katrina van Eden the nearest maternal-line ancestor she shares with Stephanie Barnardt.

Yaaay Stephanie! Thanks Ian - that is big news :-) I've updated the Curator notes as well.

Remind me how we know that Hilda Victoria Goosen Scott-Hayward is N1a1a2? (Sorry if that's a stupid question and I've forgotten something obvious.) :-/

Ian, there seems to be a problem with that tree of Stephanie BARNARDT... you see that one of her mtDNA line profiles (Pienaar/van Staden) has a DN in 1943 (and the one we have is aged 91 then...) - and the husband was still alive then.... I find that likely to be impossible :) This in in conflict with the current husband whom died 1911, as indication that we also have the incorrect mtDNA line for Barnardt... DN below - will link it to her profile when found.

http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm30ddf0?201707091...

Ah, it seems that the description regarding the living status of the husband might be wrong, while the tree is correct. Have placed the DN on the profile Martha Catharina Pienaar

Tree there OK therefore

Apparently her son has been tested Sharon, but his tree is private and isn't connected to the public profile for his mother (you said it was a bit embarrassing when you initiated a merge without their consent?).
Has anyone actually tried to contact Hilda's son?

Hilda Elizabeth (Eliza) Goosen mother of Private mother of Private User who tested N1a1a2

The tree of Barnardt has now been sourced as correct (placed more DNs and added children+ in birth order), still leaves us as you point out with Hilda's son. It would be great if his tree can be connected to the big tree with his permission.

No, the embarrassing thing was that the connection profile to the big tree appeared to have been fabricated, if I recall correctly. I'm just trying to check if that was the case.

Extrapolated, rather than fabricated: Margaret Louisa Ingram 's documents give us no proof of connection to the parents Jan gave her. If we merge the tree Jan created with the tree of [Hilda Ingram Goosen mother of Vicki Scott-Hayward mother of] Michael Dean Anthony Scott-Hayward who tested N1a1a2 - we create the DNA conflict we're trying to explain.

Have a solution for that... if you would understand that my logic for initially linking to d2e6 with those parents.

I found on the DN of the brother of the father (brother's profile = Bernardus Petrus Rens, c2d3) - see his DN...

that he had a daughter Louisa Margaretha (now the order of the names are inconsistent, but essentially the same) - but the mtDNA is what we are after!.... van Niekerk mother was N1a!

Yes - that does make more sense Jan.
That Margaret Louise Ingram nee Rens could have been the same person as Louisa Margaretha Rens, and therefore dau. of Bernadus Petrus Rens and Johanna Catharina van Niekerk (who is N1a).

Until we can confirm Louisa Ingram's ancestry either way -let's remove the N1a listing under Regina on the mtDNA project all together. Can always be added back at a later date if necessary.