Regina van Rapenberg van Guinea, SM/PROG - mtDNA M30c

Hi guys, I apologise I have been super busy and not online here for a couple of months so missed Ian's question, but glad to see you did find what you were looking for.

Interesting discussion.

I have not researched the Reginas and there were likely several, but something feels a little odd to me. Rapenberg is in east Vlaandere, in the current Belgium. This is nowhere near Guinea. So anyone "van Rapenberg" I would have expected to have a European haplogroup.

Regina "van Guinea" obviously indicates an African origin..

The name with 2 toponymns "van Rapenberg" and "van Guinea" does not quite make sense to me. Could you guys please tell me in what record a person was named such please? I am really curious about his.

Via what record/s is "Regina van Rapenberg van Guinea" linked as the mother of Lysbeth Jansz van die Kaap?

Hi Em, great to have you active on Geni again!
I've been relying on FFYP for this tree : http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g6/p6259.htm
.....and agree it is a strange name!
(I've wondered if it has anything to do with Raapenberg rd in C.T. Lol !)

Would be wonderful if you could review the sources FFYP has used. (I don't have access to any of them).

I'm intrigued by the potential mtDNA match with Ansela (Campher) v.d. Caap. It would seem to confirm a related Guinea/Angola slave origin.

P.S. Something else to have caught my attention with this lot:
If Regina van Guinea and Christina van Angola are one and the same person, sister of Anna and fellow Haaselt/Amersfoort survivor along with Pieter Pietesz, then I have a hunch we will also end up seeing an mtDNA match to Christijn Pietersz van de Caep who names her only known daughter Anna.

I do recall thinking about this one when I was working on the DNA Mapping of the Slave Route project. I decided to work on the assumption that Mansell & Delia were quoting from an original document - although I'm not seeing one cited.
My presumption was that Regina had perhaps come to Guinea via being someone's slave in Rapenberg first.

"Gegeima / Jajenne van Guinea aka Tavina [Regina?] van Rapenberg later nicknamed Lobbetje?"
Mansell Upham 'At Earth's Extremest End… http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/RemarkableWriting/UL20ExtremestEnd.pdf

"On 10 September 1657 the Hasselt departed the Cape (after an earlier false start) for Angola and the coast of 'Guinea' with orders to acquire slaves for the Cape. They had been deterred from attempting to purchase slaves at the bay of Luanda de St. Paulo by the presence of four other ships anchored there, and sailed on. They went first to Cape Lopez on the Gabonese coast for water and wood, and then proceeded to Andra, a slave-trading centre on the coast of upper Guinea. The vessel arrives at the Cape with 226 or 228 [different figures recorded contemporaneously] remaining from 271 originally embarked. Forty three or 45 died enroute and some women were already pregnant according to a later account. Eighty of the best 'Guinea' slaves were sent on to Batavia, and at the Cape a few abscond and many succomb to illness — by 5 March 1659 only 41 remain. The slaves had been purchased at what is now Grand Popo in present day Benin and would have come from as far afield as Sudan. The Hasslt arrived back at the Cape on 6 May 1658 and its slave cargo was discharged the following day. The following slaves would most likely have been among those who survived at the Cape: Abraham van Guinea, Adouke van Guinea, Anna van Guinea, Claas van Guinea, Deuxsous van Guinea, Evert van Guinea, Koddo van Guinea, Louis van Guinea, Maria van Guinea, Oude Hans van Guinea, Pieter van Guinea, Regina van Rapenberg van Guinea and Gegeima van Guinea."5,6
5. Mansell Upham 'At Earth's Extremest End… Op 't eijnde van de Aerd … The genealogical impact of the 'Angola' & 'Guinea' slaves at the Cape of Good Hope in the 17th century', First Fifty Years, Uprooted Lives - Unfurling the Cape of Good Hope's Earliest Colonial Inhabitants (1652-1713), (http://e-family.co.za/ffy/ui66.htm), August 2014. "pp. 5, 22-27."
6. Anna J. Böeseken, Slaves and Free Blacks at the Cape 1658-1700 (Cape Town: Tafelberg, 1977), pp.10, 12.
http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g13/p13936.htm

On the possible daughter, Lijsbeth Jans: van de Caep - also from FFYP
Mansell Upham 'What can't be cured, must be endured … Cape of Good Hope - first marriages & baptisms (1652-1665)', First Fifty Years, Uprooted Lives - Unfurling the Cape of Good Hope's Earliest Colonial Inhabitants (1652-1713), (http://e-family.co.za/ffy/ui66.htm), January 2012. "Lijsbeth Jans: van de Caep halfslag likely daughter of Regina / Tavina van Rapenberg / Licinne / Ticonne van Guinea born c. 1662 Cape mesties; baptized 1663 [?]."

Ian, why do you think "Regina van Guinea and Christina van Angola" are the same person?

Sharon, because Ian's working from FFY Project, which states:
"It is possible that Regina van Rapenberg van Guinea and Christijn van Angola are the same individual. The daughter of Lijsbeth Jans, who is a strong candidate to be the daughter of Regina, is named as Regina Christina in the 1712 monsterrol (muster) and as Regina Kristina when she baptises her own daughter Katrina on 24 July 1712"

Personally I think it's a concatenation of several individuals i.e. Regina Christina van Guinea van Rapenberg van Angola. Van waar ook al ons wil, solank dit ons storie pas.

This will take some looking into but I have a feeling there were numerous Regina's and to just assume that certain ones were the same person or that various other named individuals were the same person as a particular Regina, seems like venturing into assumptive/speculative territory to me.

Honestly, I think it will save a lot if time and effort, and remove a huge risk of error, if in general we make it our aim to stay clear away from accepting assumtion/speculation as fact and STOP lines officially at the earliest confirmed stamouer (in this case Lysbeth Jansz van die Kaap) until we can find clear PROOF of their ancestry.

By all means debate the hypotheses put forward, but add the speculation banner as at Koddo van Guinea, SM/PROG (or similar) to such identities, so they are not taken as fact until PROOF emerges.

That way we can continue to research and debate these issues but our lines will remain factual and we will not spoil well researched lines by adding potentially incorrect stamouer information as "fact".

For example, in the FTDNA project we have just removed "Lijsbeth van Arabus" as the stamouer of the L3b3 line for the very same reason. There really is no proof to confirm this link. The stammoeder is Lijsbeth Sanders until/unless proof of her mother's identity emerges.

We should let the stamouer be the earliest known ancestor whose identity can clearly be CONFIRMED by supporting records. I think it will be a huge benefit in terms of accuracy of lines and will be of huge benefit to SA genealogy if we can adopt this riguor on Geni.

I think that's an excellent suggestion Em.

In the cases where a possible blood connection is suggested by the proximity of a tiny population coming on a ship together, we've indicated that it is only a possible relationship on both profiles using a Curator note. I'm happy that that is quite clear.

If there is a question of Lijsbeth van Arabus's descent line - it would great if someone opened a Discussion on this from her profile - that way the data is available for everyone. It sounds like a valuable Discussion.

With respect, geni projects are not subsets of either FTDNA projects or the FFYP, and will not have their policy determined by either, or be caught up in the rivalry between those two sites.

The Discussions are there to determine on a case by case basis, whether the research supports the supposition.

Can I make a suggestion Em, why don't you create disconnected/floating profiles for each of the Reginas that you believe to have been conflated. This might be a useful tool for noting down only hard facts for each, leaving out all speculation. These profiles could be merged with each other at a later stage when sufficient evidence accumulates. This exercise might give us some insight into the kind of methodology that Mansell Upham and others can be presumed to have used to arrive at their conclusions. (Marselij van Angola/Claesje is another of these compound/conflated figures).

I'm tarting to think that a Hasselt/Amersfoort Project might be a useful place to list the profiles of individuals such as "the Reginas" etc who are known to have existed but who can't yet be securely connected to trees.

Hi Ian,

I honestly have no time to embark on a verification project of all the Reginas, and since we can't be sure that stammoeder Lysbeth Jansz van die Kaap's mother's first name was indeed Regina, it may not even be useful.

I think whoever claims/suggests "possible" names/identities for speculative ancestors should be willing to supply reasons and supporting evidence for their hypotheses.

Sharon is quite right. As long as these speculative ancestors are indicated as "possible" parents and are not given Stamouer status until proof emerges, all is well.☺

Perhaps I misunderstood all the discussion about the so-called "Regina van Rapenberg van Guinea", it sounded to me as if she was considered the stamouer. But I see for this line Lysbeth Jansz van die Kaap is indeed the SM which is great.

As for "Lijsbeth van Arabus" I see she is shown as the SM. Presumably someone has unearthed proof of her being Lijsbeth Sanders's mother. I will keep an open mind and read all the discussions about her sometime.

As for the west African slaves who arrived in 1658 few will be able to be linked to specific family trees by name, but thanks to DNA analysis we can nevertheless detect and acknowledge their contribution to our DNA. ☺

When I researched this tree for the first time a few years ago, I jotted down a rough note under a heading FFYP that Mansell Upham had reached the conclusion that Regina v.R.v.G was a likely mother for Lysbeth Jansz because he had eliminated all other candidates.

I don't claim those were his or Delia's exact words, and FFYP has been edited and updated a number of times since then so it's impossible to verify. But it does perhaps provide possible insight into his reasons for having made the hypothesis.

......or at least that it was carefully considered even if we don't know the reasons candidates were eliminated.

The idea of slave ship project is a good one. Join me if you start it :-)

I've added all the 'possibles' into the Curator Notes on Lijsbeth Arabus, SM/PROG & her children - pending further Discussion from her profile.

Alison Hall's mtDNA line no longer runs to Jannetje Bort, so Martin Andreas Karl (Dries) Potgieter you are now the only confirmed line to Jannetje Bort.

Okay - fixed the Curator note on Jannetje Bort, SM

Private User's M33a3 maternal line now goes to Maria Jansz Vermeulen, b3 SM and Catharina Vermeulen, SM. Seems very plausible.

I'd like to jump in on this discussion. Lorraine Petzer who is a direct maternal descendent of Christijn Pietersz van de Kaap has received her mtDNA results - L2c
This excludes Maaij Claesje van Angola as Christijn's mother. Are there any other Angola/Guinea slaves with this haplogroup that are documented?

No, Christijn is the first L2c in the SM mtDNA Project, and there are none in the FTDNA Cape Dutch Project yet. But note that we have L2a1f predicted for Christina Catharina v.d.K.
Salas et al, 2004, ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182259/ ) report L2c at a fairly even frequency across North, Central and South America for African slave descendants (figure 1) - but report a much higher frequency in African populations from West Africa than Central Africa (Angola), so a "van Guinea" mother seems more likely.
Considering her surname, I can't help thinking that Pieter Pietersz might be a possible father candidate: http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g13/p13595.htm

Pure speculation, but note that Pieter Pietersz

Thank you to all :-) Very beneficial to the SA tree.

I am linked to Lysbeth Jansz via her daughter Regina Christina Jonkers, my mtDNA is also L0a1b2a.

" M30c was found
in Thogataveera of Andhra Pradesh and Chaturvedi of Uttar Pradesh" in India. I think this ancestral mother of ours did, as Sharon Lee Doubell suggested, come through Holland: "My presumption was that Regina had perhaps come to Guinea via being someone's slave in Rapenberg first". I have been looking for Indian in my paper trail to match our 1 percent in the dna and thought this might be it.

:-)

My father descends in direct matrilineal succession from Lijsbeth Jansz van de Caab / van de Kaap (putative daughter of Regina van Guinea) by her daughter, Catharina van Eeden. The line continues from mother to mother via the following families: Van Zyl, Steyn, De Jager, Boshoff, Van Staden, Oosthuyzen, Van Staden and Breedt to my father. My father’s mtDNA has been identified by FTDNA test as L0a1b2a.

Thanks for that info Francesco. Would be wonderful if you could add your father's tree to Geni (we can help merge him into whatever line comes closest) - and then we could list him on the SA mtDNA Progenitors project as another confirmed line.

Glenda and Sharon - it was not permitted to take slaves to Patria ... that is why so many were sold at the Cape by officials returning home. Also, the naming of slaves very rarely kind ... I would suggest that someone mockingly named her Regina van Rapenburg or Queen of Rapenburg.

Thanks Delia

This is a fascinating discussion. Thanks to all the contributions.

I have a question about mitochondrial dna.

Both my cousins appear to have a direct matrilineal connection to Lijsbeth Jansz van de Cabo through Regina van Eeden.

They have both recently tested through 23andme. They are reported to be L0a1b2.

Does anyone now enough about how these tests are performed by the various companies to help me decide if I need to revisit my genealogical research as I’ve clearly made a mistake somewhere, or if this can be the same result because laboratories test/report to different depths or standards.

Many thanks in advance,

Stephen Reed.