Gange-Hrólfr 'Rollo' of Normandy - Gange-Hrólfr 'Rollo' of Normandy and number of children

Started by Anette Guldager Boye on Saturday, February 6, 2016
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2/6/2016 at 4:39 AM

Gange-Hrólfr 'Rollo' of Normandy

There has been some disagreement on the number of Rollo’s children.
It does seem that there is some evidence of about 6 children. The sources vary on this. When talking of sources this the different sagas of Scandinavia and that of Christian Annals of the time.
I believe what needs to be done is a listing of mentioned children of Rollo and what sources this comes from. IF the sources vary this should also be mentioned, as Rollo’s ancestry is mentioned as uncertain today, due to disagreement of the sources.
On top of that there should be reach some sort of consensus on how the sources should be presented. Here the talk is whether the Scandinavian sagas is a valid source or not. IN many cases they have been accepted as evidence and I believe should be here to. That is of cause as long as it is made clear that there are difficulties with this type, but that again goes for all sources so far back in time. Here the evidence will always be scattered and sometimes in disagreement.

2/7/2016 at 10:32 PM

Tagging Gange-Hrólfr 'Rollo' Ragnvaldsson so that it's listed in his "discussions" tab.

2/7/2016 at 11:03 PM

The one that's on every tree is William (Gulliaume) "Langaspjot" of Normandy. I think we can assume that he's documented.

There's Geirlaug / Geirloc / Adele who married the duke of Aquitane. Medlands thinks she is well documented.

There's Kadin, who's attested to in Landnamabok.

These 3 are currently listed on the tree.

Medlands (http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORMANDY.htm#RobertIdied928) also mentions a daughter called Niederga from "Europeische Stammtafeln", but notes that primary evidence is not found.

I'm missing some....

2/7/2016 at 11:15 PM

There should also at least be a Robert. I have not had the time to look at him yet.

3/2/2016 at 6:51 AM

That's Richard I, 'the Fearless', Duke of Normandy and Richard II "the Good", Duke of Normandy being tested - whether or not they can say anything about Rollo, it should be lots of info for the families of medieval Europe, given all the people they're related to!

3/2/2016 at 7:42 AM

For a good, academic analysis of the children of the Rollo (and all the Norman dukes) see The Henry Project:

http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/rollo000.htm

Private User
3/2/2016 at 9:13 AM

For those reading Swedish:
http://www.svd.se/vem-var-gange-rolf

3/2/2016 at 10:12 AM

According to Geni, all male-line descendants of Ragnvald Mørejarl are either descendants of Rollo or descendants of the Orkney jarls.
The only pure Y-line I've been able to trace (using HistoryLink) that might have living descendants is the one leading to this profile:

John Washington

All other lines lead to dead Y-ends in the tree.
If we're able to get a good read on the Y-chromosomes of these two guys, I think there will be a good deal of interest in expanding this tree further!

3/2/2016 at 10:20 AM

... and a couple of levels further down the tree, I end up with only the 2 sons of this guy:

Maximilian Emanuel, Freiherr von Washington

neither of which is listed with children.
We can only wait...

3/2/2016 at 11:26 AM

> descendants of Rollo or descendants of the Orkney jarls.

Assuming you accept Rollo as a descendant of the jarls of Orkney ;)

And unfortunately, the line back from Walter de Washington is a well-known fake. This was an early attempt to glorify the ancestry of US President George Washington. Sort of a legitimist propaganda. I'm surprised no one has MP'd this profile and disconnected it.

3/2/2016 at 1:11 PM

So would you cut above Bondo or below Bondo?

It was kind of a fun exercise to see if Geni contained a claim for an unbroken male line from Ragnvald Mørejarl that did not go via Rollo - but the chances of the lines standing up to scrutiny aren't very good - a bit sad that there was only one :-(

Nothing like a little linke-cutting to stir up some controversy!

3/2/2016 at 3:57 PM

I would cut the parents of Walter (below Bondo). I doubt that Bondo was a real person but we can leave that for another day. Hoping one of the curators will take an interest in the Washington family and lead a major clean up here.

Private User
3/2/2016 at 7:20 PM

My Norwegian Cousin in More sent me this link today. Apparently the two Rollo's are related to each other? They are taking their bones out of small boxes. Its seems highly unlikely that any DNA would survive someone boiling bones?
http://www.smp.no/nyheter/2016/03/02/DNA-jegere-%C3%A5pnet-vikinggr...

3/2/2016 at 10:52 PM

That's the same story as the one that Marianne posted above - yes, it's exciting times!

Random googling seems to say that you boil the samples when extracting DNA (https://www.researchgate.net/post/Boiling_method_for_Bacterial_DNA_...) - so it might be OK. Only the results will show!

Private User
3/3/2016 at 9:02 AM

My line goes to Jon Mogensen Skancke and ancestors in Jamtland then Sweden and then Iceland for a number of generations until Rollo. Daugther Kaølin who is in Iceland. Is any of this correct?

3/3/2016 at 11:12 AM

Kaðin and her descendants are documented in the Icelandic "Landnamabok" - they have a long tradition of believing that the book is accurate.

The early generations of Skanke (1300s) are much in doubt, but later generations are well documented.

The link from Kaðin to Rollo is a matter of much debate - if it wasn't weighed down with the weight of many historians, I'd guesstimate that there were multiple people known as Ganger-Rolf, and that Kaðin is not the daughter of the one identified with Rollo.

It's unlikely we'll ever know for sure.

Private User
3/3/2016 at 12:39 PM

Harald, I believe the article which Google translated said that they boiled the poor men to fit them in the boxes for burial, not to extract DNA. They plan to extract DNA from the tooth. One can only hope they did not boil their skulls as well.

Private User
3/3/2016 at 2:19 PM

Thanks Harald, hadn't paid much attention to the Rollo name until I saw the article and thought I would check. It seems that I am connected to pretty much ever famous Norwegian or other Europeans including Ragnar Lodbrock! At least according to geni. I have stories of Jon Skancke and his son Sakarias (7th ggrandfather) but don't pay much attention to anything beyond Jon.

3/4/2016 at 12:36 AM

We're all connected :-) I suspect that when we finally decide to unmerge Rollo from Ganger-Rolf (I'm slowly coming over to "when", not "if", but am happy to delay the decision until the DNA evidence is published), there will be much lamenting about lost connections to Ragnar - but then people will discover that there are other paths....

3/4/2016 at 5:44 AM

Harald, why do you think it is likely we will end up concluding Rollo and Gange-Rolf is not one and the same. Are you in Dudo camp or do you see other evidence that might go in that direction?

3/4/2016 at 6:13 AM

Ole, a very preliminary study a few years ago seemed to suggest that the dialect of Norse spoken in Normandy was closer to Danish than to Norwegian. It's nothing firm enough to draw conclusions but it's suggestive.

3/4/2016 at 7:34 AM

Ole, Dudo plainly thought of everything to the North as "far away barbaric places", so I wouldn't trust him to understand the distinction between Denmark and Norway.

The ones that get me are:
- The dissonance between "Rollo" and "Rolf"
- The presence of "Ganger-Rolf" as an appellation in multiple places
- The long timespan from Rollo's time to Snorre's formalization
- The lack of pointers to Norwegian relatives in contemporary Frankish annals

I have a sneaking suspicion that if Ragnvald Mørejarl had an overlarge son named Rolf, he ended up on Iceland, not in Normandy. But I don't think we'll ever know for sure.

3/4/2016 at 8:18 AM

Further to some of Harald's points:

- Landnámabók says Caðlín was daughter of Gongu-Hrólfr but Laxdœla Saga says this Gongu-Hrólfr was son of Oxna-Þórir.

- The natural Latinization of the name Hrólfr would be Radulfus or Rodulfus. Yet, the Frankish and Norman sources usually refer to the founder of Normandy as Rollo. Since these Frankish sources also include numerous individuals named Rodulfus, and consistently distinguish the two names, it appears that the names were regarded as different.

Private User
3/5/2016 at 11:41 AM

Looks like Ketill Flatnose and Rollo are associated with each other but not by blood.

http://www.geni.com/path/Ketill-Bjarnarson+is+related+to+Gange-Hr%C...

There are a lot of Kitchel/Kitchells out there today. The name sounds a lot like Ketil but there is no proof of association. The oldest known Kitchel was born in England than disappears. Ketil is referred to as having Scottish roots, while Kitchel is referred to as having German roots but shows up in England. Scandinavian, Scottish and Norse are connected with the Ketil name. Does anyone think it is possible that Ketil and Kitchel are variations of the same name?

One Cornelis Ketel has Dutch roots yet his name is not. Kitchel is a German name but is found in England. Both Ketel appear in England but neither name reflects where they are born or where they are from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelis_Ketel
nd Kitchel are found in England about the same time.
Edward Kitchell

3/6/2016 at 7:33 AM

Ketil is a Nordic given name, not a surname.
It's thought to be derived from "Kettle" - some more inf (in Norwegian): https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kjetil

Private User
3/6/2016 at 8:19 AM

The name Ketil may be nordic, but, the word came from Latin. Catillus, cadus, catinus, - over to casque, or in english, soup-plate... Nice name.

Private User
3/6/2016 at 6:08 PM

Thank you Harald and Ulf. Harald, the information is very helpful. I noticed that there is a J in the name Ketil using the Norse origination. Would Kjetil sound like Kitchel when pronounced the old norse way?

3/6/2016 at 8:59 PM

The J seems to be a later convention. I have seen cases where the sagas have been translated into modern Norwegian where they've also changed the spelling of the names - Ketil / Kjetil is probably one such pair; we can't be certain how they pronounced it, but no change is necessarily implied by this.
In modern Norwegian, the "Kit" part of "Kitchel" would have a different sound from the "Kje" part of "Kjetil" - the "t" sound is part of the second syllable of "Kje-til", but I'd make it part of the first syllable of "Kit-chel" - but language scholars often have different ideas of what "sounds alike" than what I have!

Old Norse inflected names too (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse#Grammar) - so when one reads an Old Norse text without knowing the grammar, it can be quite difficult to be sure whether two names are the same or not!

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