The REAL Moytoy https://www.geni.com/people/Moytoy-of-Tellico/6000000004086139262

Linda (Carr) Buchholz

Re: As you can see from the notes above, James R Hicks & Jerry L Clark - collaborators on Cherokee Lineages by James R Hicks, are both very knowledgeable and respected authorities by the Cherokee Nation regarding Cherokee History.

Absolutely! That’s part of what’s shocking about the bogus Moytoy tree.

I draw your attention to these posts:

https://www.geni.com/discussions/179496?msg=1207021

“Much of Jim Hicks ‘book’ of Cherokee Lineages is accurate. Where he lists documentation it is reliable, but he also included (and sometimes noted) theories and speculation and his listings for many pre-1800 people also include information he found on the Internet. There is a lot of useful information, including census references and Dawes and Miller application numbers of related persons.”

———

The topics on this discussion are getting confused.

I would suggest that questions about Cherokee be within the project for https://www.geni.com/projects/Cherokee-Genealogy-and-History/12

So they can be better addressed?

Discussions within the project are https://www.geni.com/discussions?discussion_type=project-12

And we are trying to organize by known families.

Just put the Hicks, Lightfoot Traders to the Islands of Antique in the discussion as they were connected historically. Seemed ok to do.

Who do the Lightfoots of Antigua connect to? Part of what we’re trying to make clear is that “no one known” connects to any Moytoy. There is no known Ancestry for him; he had one known child, who had no known children.

Moytoy's son was know by several names:

Amouskositte (or Ammouskossittee, Amascossite, Ammonscossittee, Amosgasite, "Dreadfulwater")[8] of Great Tellico (b. ca. 1728), served as "emperor" 1741–1753,[8] son of Moytoy

https://wikivisually.com/wiki/List_of_Principal_Chiefs_of_the_Cherokee

Erica Howton That is where the genetic tree comes in and connects all of the folks that Capt/Councilman purchased at NOLA slave market and distributed into his Pamunky Neck, Va and Eutaw, AL properties from Antiqua with neihbors Hicks and DuRant.

It may seem a red herring, but it isn't. It is part of the Qualla story, which is 33% of the Cherokee story, closest cousins to the Quechuans. Just cross linking the info here as it comes in.

what are they heck they saying? this is crazy

Bellinda Gail Myrick-Barnett Could you or someone write this out in a more narrative form? I realize you’re deep in the DNA studies and doing some great work, but I’m missing the bigger picture, so I get lost. Which doesn’t help. :)

Private User If you are referring to the so called Moytoy tree, Cherokee tribe historians and genealogists say there isn’t any.

There was a Moytoy in Records of course. They do not know his parents; Moytoy was a Cherokee man. They do not know the name of his wife. He had one known son; if that man had children, they do not know who they were.

There was a much later man also called Moytoy, of Settico. If there is any family relationship of him and the Moytoy of history, it is not known.

Basically, Cherokee genealogy begins around 1800. From then on there are good records.

I hope everyone reads this page:

https://www.geni.com/projects/Cherokee-Genealogy-and-History/12

Erica Howton

The Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma lists him as one of their early chiefs. He wasn't just some Cherokee man. He was an important Chief. The Cherokee Nation didn't just list him for giggles & grins

Cherokee Nation Chiefs in Early Times (partial list)
These Chiefs served in the Cherokee Nation East. Historically, there were tribal town chiefs, and then Principal Chiefs whose jurisdiction encompassed all tribal towns and districts. The following were considered Principal Chiefs.

Moytoy, 1730 – 1760
Atakullakulla, 1760 – 1775
Oconostota, 1775 – 1780

http://cherokee.org/About-The-Nation/History/Chiefs/Chiefs-of-the-E...

Linda (Carr) Buchholz I think you might be misunderstanding what I’m trying to get across.

The list of chiefs is of course historic.

Their families are “not.”

We do not have records to support the families attributed to Moytoy (his one son only with no descendants and no names for their wives).

This is the tree for Chief Attakullakulla "Little Carpenter", Cherokee Emissary to England

Which is accurate & complete as best we know.

This is the tree for Oconostota 'Stalking Turkey' which was corrupted on Geni so still needs some work to finalize.

None of these men have a known family relationship to each other.

Moytoy and Attakullakulla have no known surviving descendants.

Bellinda Gail Myrick-Barnett I see the DNA work but I don’t follow the bigger picture.

It seems to be based around the island of Antigua, the Slave trade, and someone of the prominent Lightfoot family in Colonial Virginia.

Beyond that I’m lost. Does this have to do with Cheraw ?

There were 2 men named Lightfoot that were the slaveholders. Goodrich Lightfoot and Sherwood Lightfoot.

Eric. You are not saying he doesn't exist.you are saying you don't know much about him?

Sherwood Lightfoot involves the Howell family and Goodrich Lightfoot involves the Evans family. I added this to the "about me" profile of Frances "Franky" Evans profile...

Frances (Evans) Evans

My Kings are Mingo. They merged with other tribes. This might help. I am going to try and get documents soon. Eric

MKK and Diana - I think we are posting on the wrong discussion. This discussion is about Moytoy. I deleted my post and put it on the Lighfoot one.

Erica, this would not have to do with the Cheraw, to answer your question on that.

On Lightfoot, thanks for adding that, Diana.

I only put it on here because Erica mentioned Lightfoot....wanted to specify which Lightfoots....

Mary

Re: Eric. You are not saying he doesn't exist.you are saying you don't know much about him?

We know about Moytoy & Attakalluka & Oconasta as chiefs in public life. There sometimes are mentions that they had wives and children, but nothing about their parents.

So on the internet you'll see family trees for them.

They are bogus.

The Geni tree for Moytoy is the real one.

Just like the title of this discussion. :)

Ancestry got its i4GG act together and nixed the Moytoy non autosomnal matching folks in the house of Moytoy.

Bellinda, could I trouble you for a translation?

What is “the House of Moytoy”?

There isn’t one genealogically because the descent and Ancestry of the historic Moytoy has been debunked as a fabrication.

If this is by Ancestry DNA members they should be clued in.

If this is by anyone at corporate Ancestry (ie, they named a DNA circle ?) then if there’s a contact person who needs to hear from Cherokee historians, send that info along.

Is this the House of Moytoy? From 2009?

https://www.werelate.org/wiki/User:BobC/House_of_Moytoy

It’s been debunked.

No tree anywhere should reflect this construct.

From https://www.werelate.org/wiki/User_talk:BobC/House_of_Moytoy

The article is based on Victorian fantasy derived from the exploits of a Scottish con artist from England, Alexander Cumming, who attempted to gain control over the Cherokee by naming one of the leaders of one of the smaller and more remote towns as "emperor" of the Cherokee, whose name he corrupted to Moytoy. That is all there was to it. There is no "House of Moytoy" and never was, they have no relation to any family of "Carpenters", Cherokee did not have any surnames until the very late 18th century, their families were matrilineal rather than patrilineal, they did not have "royal dynasties", and the individual Cumming named Moytoy had no European genes. The reference cited above is meaningless because there is no relation. And I repeat, there never was a "House of Moytoy.”

Translation: Ancestry upgraded to i4GG and CODIS as bogus filters in effect; well, the computer does the triangulations and if the segments do not line up, it throws out the
bogus-ness. That already happened on Moytoy when his lines were removed from Ancestry.

So anyone using Ancestry DNA tools currently should never get a result relating them in any way to a Moytoy?

Correct

The links to him are gone.

Great news. Thank you for sharing it.

No one is arguing that Moytoy of Tellico existed and was a prominent Cherokee chief between 1730 and his death in 1741. I know Jerry Clark personally and he will be the first person to tell you Jim Hicks went off the rails trying to build his trees back before 1750. Jim abandoned his project years ago. Jerry Clark provided dozens of documents and Jim correlated a lot of information, so anything that refers to a document should be accurate. He made many leaps of faith in connecting people, some of which he notes are speculation and others not noted. Due to the speculative (and often erroneous) nature of his pre-Revolution listings, he is not widely respected by current Cherokee geneaologists, although many use his trees as a quick reference to find Dawes and Eastern Cherokee numbers. Jim Hicks had access through Jerry Clark to records that Emmet Starr didn’t have, and Jim did correct a number of errors in Starr and straightened out (or proposed a different theory) for some of the more confusing family groups.