Francois Joseph Savoie SOLVED

Started by Joseph Bolton on Saturday, September 15, 2018
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9/21/2018 at 5:53 PM

Thats a good point Bill. DNA evidence along with oral tradition and other historical context should to be considered together in order to point to the truth. In the Hemmings case, DNA evidence coupled with oral family tradition pointed to the truth. We should keep that in mind when assessing Francios Savoie

9/21/2018 at 5:56 PM

In the Hemings case, it is not accurate to assume that yDNA evidence alone was able to provide conclusive proof that Jefferson was the father of at least one of Sally Hemings' children.

As correctly pointed-out by a dissenting Jefferson-Wayles descendant and a past president of the Monticello Association, a Jefferson lineage society, the DNA tests merely indicated that any one of eight (8) Jeffersons could have been the father of Eston Heming. The investigating team had concluded that Jefferson's paternity was the simplest explanation and consistent with historic evidence, but the DNA study could not identify Thomas Jefferson exclusively of other Jefferson males because no sample of his DNA was available.

9/21/2018 at 9:38 PM

This is true - but not pertinent to what you're trying to show using at DNA, which is why I didn't bring it up.

9/21/2018 at 9:41 PM

They were working from an existing knowledge of the Jefferson male DNA. You are not.

9/22/2018 at 12:25 AM

The point of the Hemmings story was to demonstrate that family oral tradition and historical context, working with DNA tests, told the complete story. Neither stood alone.This applies to the Savoies: oral tradition, historical analysis and relationships established by DNA tell the story together.
Bill has done great work using all these factors for the Savioes. Thats the point of this thread, not the Hemmings.

9/22/2018 at 1:12 AM

Hi Joe. We seem to be arguing - which is detracting from any point that Bill was trying to make.

In the vast majority of cases of an oral tradition of a noble ancestor somewhere back in the mists of time (which Jefferson isn't, but Tomas is) , it is proved to be vanity genealogy rather than historical truth. The South African French Huguenot descendants, for example, were taken in by a genealogical oral tradition that we were descended from Cardinal de Richelieu (even naming a well known South African brandy after him). The fact that he persecuted Protestants didn't seem relevant until we really started working on the line and proved (to all our disappointment) that we were simply a side descentline here.) https://www.geni.com/discussions/108521?msg=795093.

There are, however, cases where oral tradition is proved with DNA: In a hugely significant SA case, DNA recently proved that the gossip of adultery in a divorce case in the 1600s was correct and thousands of South Africans surnamed Botha were actually on the Appel descent line: https://www.geni.com/projects/Bothas-Appels-who-are-DNA-descendants.... Much amusement about the appel not falling far from the tree wasn't exactly shared by the Bothas who had been 'disinherited' of their surname. So, also an unpopular outcome.

You might, however, find the study itself interesting, as it involved matching descent lines - which is ultimately what I think it would take to solidly confirm Bill's suspicions.

Private User
9/22/2018 at 3:39 AM

My mom does have a match to Danielle, but I think it is though our Pettit grandparents, which im no longer finding on the tree. We have cuurent matches to Pettit via dna. Our dna is on geni

9/22/2018 at 5:51 AM

Hi Sharon, I think we were talking past each other.☺ And both south African stories are interesting.

Anyway, lets get back to talking about Savoies with Bill developing a great.case for Francis Savoie being the son of Tomasso.

9/22/2018 at 6:52 AM

Bill,
Now we are talking about yet another royal family connected to Acadia? The Bourgs? I am directly descended from Bourg line as well as Savoie. How is Bourg from the house of Bourbon?

9/22/2018 at 8:46 AM

Glenn,

My mistake, it should be Antoine Bourg, father of Jeanne II.

In 2016, the following was the line of descent at Geni:

Antoine Bourg
Helene Comtee
Gaspard Bourbon Comtee
Louis I de Bourbon, Prince de Conde

Currently, Gaspard is no longer listed as a son of Louis I. So, the connection is no longer there.

It appears that the only active connection of the early Acadians to the royal families of Europe is Francois Savoie.

But it may be worth investigating in another thread whether there is enough proof that Gaspard is the son of Louis I.

9/22/2018 at 8:56 AM

Because my first autosomal DNA match is with a Comeau it begged the question whether Francois Joseph Savoie produced Comeau descendants?

And the answer according to Geni is yes.

His great granddaughter Marguerite-Brigette Savoie (through his son Germain and grandson Francois) married two (2) Comeaus - Jean-Baptiste and Maurice. And these marriages produced 5 kids - 2 sons and 3 daughters.

9/22/2018 at 9:24 AM

My second autosomal DNA match with a Boucher also begged the question whether Francois Joseph Savoie produced Boucher descendants?

So far, I have only found a Savoie descendant and Boucher descendant union at Geni.

Francois Joseph Savoie grandson Charles Prejean (through his daughter Andree) married Marguerite Simoneaux dite Boucher. And this marriage produced a daughter.

But based on my experience with my own family, in isolated communities like Acadia, it is common to have more than one marriage connection between two families. So, it is just a matter of time before we will find another one. We will just have to keep on looking.

Private User
9/22/2018 at 11:00 AM

Segments in common:
Kit Name T034655 T511629 A034818 A258374 A386436 A531526 A744175 A680750 Tot. Segments Largest cM
T034655 *EWW - 27 1 1 0 0 0 0 29 263.7
T511629 *MJW 27 - 1 0 1 0 0 1 30 263.7
A034818 Thomas Savoie 1 1 - 45 42 43 53 50 235 224.2
A258374 Joan Savoie 1 0 45 - 47 61 49 42 245 194.8
A386436 Carol Savoie 0 1 42 47 - 52 47 50 239 224.2
A531526 David Savoie 0 0 43 61 52 - 44 43 243 263.7
A744175 Paul Savoie 0 0 53 49 47 44 - 46 239 194.1
A680750 Phyllis Savoie 0 1 50 42 50 43 46 - 232 263.7

Private User
9/22/2018 at 11:10 AM

Ok that looks like bit of a mess. I re took the gedmat at 5 not 7 I have 2 and mom has 3.
Not sure if this proves any thing. Mom has 7.1cm with Carol 6.7 with Phyllis on the X chr

Mine is 5.8 with Thomas and mom 5.9 with Thomas.

Private User
9/22/2018 at 12:10 PM

Ok so I did it again @3cm and we both have matches to all of the above.

Private User
9/22/2018 at 12:49 PM

Eileen, That is looking really positive!

9/22/2018 at 1:21 PM

Bill and everyone else, here is another interesting one to try: Bettina from Austria. A686204

She matches the Savoie Siblings and the only way I think we can match is through the Hapsburgs (King Phillip II of Spain)

9/22/2018 at 1:35 PM

As for Bettina, I think our connection could be this way:

Look for Princess Henriette Adelaide of Savoy as her ancestor. She is a cousin of Prince Franscis Savoie. Princess Henriette's husband was Ferdinand Maria, Elector of Bavaria. Ferdinand was born in Munich, Germany in 1636.

Henriette and Ferdinand's son was Maximilian Emanuel. Maximilian Emanuel had two wives:

First marriage with Maria Antonia of Austria, daughter of Emperor Leopold I, Holy Roman Emperor:
Leopold Ferdinand (b. and d. 1689)
Anton (b. and d. 1690)
Joseph Ferdinand of Bavaria, Prince of Asturias (1692–1699), Crown Prince of Spain
Second marriage with Theresa Kunegunda Sobieska of Poland, daughter of King John III Sobieski:
Stillborn child (1695)
Maria Anna Karoline (1696–1750), since 1720 a nun
Charles Albert (1697–1745), elector of Bavaria, King of Bohemia and Holy Roman Emperor, ∞ 1722 Maria Amalia Josepha Anna of Austria (1701–1756)
Philipp Moritz Maria (1698–1719), elected bishop of Paderborn and Münster
Ferdinand Maria (1699–1738), imperial general
Clemens August (1700–1761), Grand Master of the Teutonic Order, Prince Archbishop of Cologne, Bishop of Regensburg, Paderborn, Osnabrück, Hildesheim and Münster
Wilhelm (1701–1704)
Alois Johann Adolf (1702–1705)
Johann Theodor (1703–1763), Cardinal, Prince bishop of Regensburg, Freising and Liege
Maximilian Emanuel Thomas (1704–1709)
He had an illegitimate child with his French mistress Agnes Françoise Louchier;
Emmanuel François Joseph, Count of Bavaria (1695–1747) had two children with Maria Josepha Karolina von Hohenfels; also had an affair with Louise Anne de Bourbon, grand daughter of Madame de Montespan.

Private User
9/22/2018 at 1:38 PM

Ran it at 5cm she has a 15.1cm on X chr with my mom.
On 3cm we both are a match. Moms mt haplo group is H our paper work takes us to France, for what it's worth.

9/22/2018 at 1:42 PM

That was fast Eileen! How do you propose that we are all connected?

Joe

Private User
9/22/2018 at 1:50 PM

Who knows. Im just seing figures. What are your gedmatch numbers? If you on ancestory we can ask John sparkman to pull your trees to here. Though sometimes the dna matches are here but the geni tree is a little behind as our trees are incomplete. (I speak for my own tree) Im going to try look if iI can find these other profiles on geni, and if they have any outstanding merges or tree conflicts on that can also distort the tree.

9/22/2018 at 2:12 PM

I personally don’t have a gedmatch number since I have never taken a DNA test. All of my research has been with my parents and their siblings DNA. Still, I would like to know if ther is a way to pull my Savoie tree from ancestory to here. Bill seems to have a good insight on how this all fits together, perhaps he has some thoughts on Bettina.

Private User
9/22/2018 at 2:12 PM

Some of these profiles are on geni as distant cousins but with conflicts.

9/22/2018 at 2:12 PM

My mom and her siblings are the six Savoies

Private User
9/22/2018 at 2:39 PM

Add your parents and grandparents here to geni, as soon as it brings up a match to ancestoty, we can arrange for your tree to be pulled through.

9/22/2018 at 3:41 PM

Here are the Chromosome 1, Location 155M to 161M results for the 6 Savoies vs. MJW:

Savoie C (2.9 cM) = 19.9 MRCA
Savoie J (1.3 cM) = 44.5 MRCA
Savoie P1 (2.9 cM) = 19.9 MRCA
Savoie D (1.5 cM) = 38.5 MRCA
Savoie P2 (3.0 cM) = 19.3 MRCA
Savoie T (2.2 cM) = 26.3 MRCA

Average (2.3 cM) = 25.1 MRCA

Just remember, Gedmatch estimates are known to deviate from the actual by as much as 3 generations.

So, the actual MRCA distance will theoretically range from 22.1 to 28.1.

Based on the foregoing, it appears that the results at Chromosome 1, Location 155M to 161M cannot support the assertion that MJW and the 6 Savoies have a common Acadian ancestor.

This conclusion only applies to this specific location. They might have Acadian matches at other locations. Their larger matches at Chromosome 22, for example, might be worth investigating.

9/22/2018 at 4:01 PM

Here are the Chromosome 1, Location 155M to 161M results for Bettina:

1.8 cM = 32.1 MRCA

This cannot support an assertion that our MRCA is Phillip II.

Of course, she might still be a descendant of Phillip II. Remember, my match with J Savoie at the same location is also 1.8 cM. She just didn't get a lot of matching genes from the multi-generational genetic lottery.

9/22/2018 at 4:13 PM

I've been following the initial thread (and now this one) about Francois Savoie for the past year, and I really appreciate the vigorous discussion and in particular the contributions of Bill Gabunia Debuque and Joseph Bolton . I'm also a descendant of Francois Savoie (8th GG), through his son Germaine / Paul / Marie Josephe / Marguerite Saulnier / Urbain LeBlanc / Honoré LeBlanc / Fedora LeBlanc / Anita LeBlanc / Mae Lorette.

My GEDmatch ID is A169583, and My Mother's is A602318. I see a couple of people in this conversation has asked Bill Gabunia Debuque for his GEDmatch ID, but I haven't yet seen an answer - Bill, I'd be interested to know what your ID is, thanks.

Joseph Bolton neither my Mom or I show any shared DNA with your list of Savoie siblings, at least using the default 7 cM threshold. We both match Tim Clifford, Glen Laffy, and Philip Babin (I"m trying to tag everyone's names in this message but it's stopped working).

I found it interesting that my Mom showed Italian and Iberian in her ethnicity estimate, and always assumed this was perhaps somewhat evident of ancestry through Tommas. However, Ancestry recently updated their ethnicity algorithm, and Iberian and Italian have disappeared (replaced seemingly by France). Has anyone else found the same thing?

9/22/2018 at 4:17 PM

Glenn Laffy your MRCA with my Mother is 3.7, and you share on Chromosomes 4, 7, 10 and 22 (you and I are MRCA=4.1 and we share 4, 7, 10 22).

Philip Babin your MRCA with my Mother is 4.6, and you share Chr. 18

9/22/2018 at 4:54 PM

Michael,

Here are the Chromosome 1, Location 155M to 161M results for your mom and you:

Your mom - 3.0 cM = 19.3 MRCA
You - 2.7 cM = 21.4 MRCA

It appears that this can still support an assertion that our MRCA is Phillip II.

Gedmatch is reported to have a margin of error of as much as 3 generations. So the theoretical actual MRCA range of your mom for this match would be 16.3 MRCA to 22.3 MRCA.

Also take note how the actual 1 generation gap between you and your mom translates to a 2.1 generation gap in the DNA estimate.

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