Felix Gilbert Denman - Felix Gilbert Denman is the grandson of John Denman, the ca. 1760 English Immigrant

https://www.geni.com/projects/American-Revolution-Battle-of-King-s-...

John Denman listed as a soldier at King's Mountain.

I do find a John Denman listed among the Revolutionary soldiers of New Jersey.

https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=4Yg-5sOYFxwC&rdi...

https://books.google.com/books/download/Official_Register_of_the_Of...

I suppose there is a slight chance that Felix's grandfather, John Denman, Revolutionary soldier and veteran of King's Mountain also served in New Jersey (and came from NJ, rather than directly from England). But if that is true, then Daniel Wright Denman would have been his g-uncle, not grandfather.

And I suppose there is also a slight chance that since Ms. Harris was so sketchy about brothers John and Daniel, that means Felix could have been the grandson of either of them.

I 'heard a rumor' once or twice, that Daniel Wright Denman relocated from NJ to SC along with members of his church/religious community. Which is logical, in light of the later SC connections between the Denmans and other families (Elstons, Clarks, etc.).

And King's Mountain isn't that far from Pendleton District, SC. So I really don't know what to do here, if anything. Just bringing it to everyone's attention, so that maybe we can collaborate to fine-tune that part of the tree.

This might also explain my confusion over the alleged Denman y-DNA. A few years ago, a friendly genealogist with another company informed me via email that my father's y-DNA was almost certainly "R1b1a2" (aka M-269). And I have every reason to believe that, because it was based on the pedigree that I personally provided for a 'genetic investigation', so to speak.

So when I later came to Geni and found my father's and paternal Denman ancestors' profiles were all labelled "R-Z16294" -- it didn't make sense. How'd that happen? How could it have changed like that, since as far as I can tell the two haplogroups do not seem to be very closely related. It there any way for me to know who provided the sample to get that result? What if the person sampled isn't really related to my father?

Quote: "Having looked at your family history, I can confirm that we have someone else with the same ancestral line in the Project, his Haplogroup is R1b1a2, so your father’s would have been the same, as he was a member of this same Denman family."

Debra, M269 is ancestral to Z16294 by 9,500 years give or take. It is definitely the haplogroup of Y-DNA from descendants of James R, Christopher and John Denman (we can actually say theirs is potentially 4 more rungs down, at FGC61663 (and 13 more) but only two have tested for that, and that was formed at ~1792AD (95% interval 1287-1896AD). I do believe there is a break in the Y-DNA line above Daniel Wright Denman, as no Y-DNA matches from the prior two generations have showed up however. Enter FGC61663 into this link, and you can see the locations of the ancestral SNPs; http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

At the time I charted it out there were 6 Y-DNA matches, I think we are up to 11 now, but only 2 Big-Y results.

Private User I appreciate very much your response here, and I hope that together we can make some progress with investigating the Denman lineage(s). I will just try to lay out a few points (things that I either 1. know or 2. observe off-hand) that might be helpful.

1. Daniel Denman was born and raised near Elizabeth, New Jersey, the son of John Denman IV of New Jersey (born in Long Island, New York).

2. Daniel married Deborah Scudder and with her had two sons that I'm aware of: James Denman and Samuel Scudder Denman. They may have had other children as well.

3. Daniel had two sisters (Mary Yeomans and Jennie Faitonte); and three brothers, John Denman V, Joseph, and Christopher (the youngest boy).

4. Brothers Daniel and John relocated from New Jersey, eventually settling in Georgia. During this time, the Revolutionary war broke out. Either or both of them may have lived for some period of time in South Carolina, probably in the Pendleton District.

5. There are no official military records for either Daniel or John, during the Revolution. Likewise, I have been unsuccessful in finding the graves of these two brothers -- and their wives, as well. (John remarried and had children, following the death of his first wife, Patience Yeomans).

6. I have not found any further information about Daniel's son, Samuel Scudder Denman, other than his baptismal record in New Jersey.

7. I will concede that Daniel may have had a son named Christopher, although I haven't seen any reliable documentation of it. However, you added a duplicate "Christopher" to Daniel's list of children. For some reason, that just doesn't make sense.

8. Also your Christopher has some fairly serious inconsistencies: a) a wife who is 36 younger; b) a brother of the same name who was born the same year, who lived to adulthood and married and had children (honestly, that is quite absurd); c) he fathered a child at around the age of 65+, just two years before he died (is that possible? I don't know).

9. Someone added Felix Gilbert Denman as the son of Daniel Wright Denman (my 5th g-grandfather). Again, without providing any reliable references for documentation. None at all, in fact.

10. Furthermore, as I explained above, according to a biography published in a massive history of Georgia (at least six volumes) -- Felix was the son of a Christopher Denman who was the son of a John Denman who immigrated directly from England in 1760. This John and Christopher are not closely related to the New Jersey Denmans. It appears to be some sort of coincidence that they happened to settle in Georgia in close proximity to brothers Daniel and John from New Jersey.

11. This John Denman is on record as being a Revolutionary war veteran who fought at King's Mountain. But I repeat he is not the brother of Daniel Denman of New Jersey. Unless these sources are wrong:

https://books.google.com/books?id=a4UccKkdd54C&pg=PA69&lpg=...

https://www.geni.com/projects/American-Revolution-Battle-of-King-s-...

I've seen this John Denman on the Federal Parks list, too. I don't find him on the Georgia roster published by the Georgia State Archives (although James is there).

https://archive.org/details/georgiasrosterrev00knigrich/page/68/mod...

Meanwhile, if Felix is actually the son of a Christopher who is the son of this John who arrived from England in ca. 1760 (the documented Revolutionary war soldier), and Felix is also the brother of a Christopher -- then probably the Christopher who is Felix's brother is also the son of John from England. And neither are sons of Daniel Wright Denman from New Jersey.

And I think that also explains why the y-DNA doesn't match my father's.

Correction, there ARE military records for John Denman serving in *New Jersey* during the Revolution. So maybe he didn't move south with Daniel, after all. Or it could have been the grandson of John IV (son of John V, perhaps). I'm not sure if troops from NJ were present at King's Mountain, but I doubt it. And this John served in the NJ militia, which I think means that he was busy guarding the homestead and vicinity. Several other of the Denman men served in NJ as well.

Also, there are records of two marriages for John Denman V in the vicinity of Elizabeth, New Jersey. So he apparently lived out his days in that area, after all.

Also there was the curious incident at church in Elizabeth, NJ, during the simultaneous baptisms of children of two of John IV's sons (as I recall), wherein one or both fathers were not present at the baptisms, leaving the baby's grandfather (John Denman IV) to stand in for them. This was in ca. 1776, at the height of political unrest, and shortly afterwards the grandfather came down with pneumonia and died.

An abstract of the will of John Denman IV is still on record. In it he divided his estate among all his sons and daughters. But oddly he only gave John (his eldest son) one or two shillings and nothing else, from what I can gather from reading it. Likewise he only allowed for his widow to keep everything that she brought into the marriage (i.e. her dowry, I suppose). The old musket that his father had left to him was not mentioned in his will.

Do you actually know your fathers Y-DNA doesn’t match? The England-origin Denman Y-DNA does not match, but all of the GA Denmans so far seem to match with each other. M269 is about 80% of Western Europe, so 67/111/500/700 marker STR or genealogical timeframe SNPs are really the only meaningful results.

Just checked my charts from 5 or so years ago, per geni your line came through

James Denman->Blake Denman->William C. Denman->I. C. Denman

and someone with
James Denman->Moses Hampton Denman +6 gen is a 3GD/111 (5-6 generations avg) from me. One of those STR mutations counted in the GD actually occurred in my grandfather, as my 1C1R has the ancestral value. I am also 3GD/111 and 2GD/111 from 2 of the the Christopher->Felix Gilbert descendants. This is one indicator that only looking at DNA matches that Christopher and James had the same father, whoever that might be. The Daniel Wright -> John DNA is 4GD/67, or 7-8 gen avg, so is still possible that he shared the same father as the other two, OR that he had broke off from that line a few generations earlier. All three of those are 100% Z16294, as that dates from 1500BC give or take (1259BCE with error bars), along with BY12083 and BY12084 (dating 163BC with error bars). They are very likely to also belong to FGC61663, FGC61661, FGC61662, FGC61664, FGC61665, FGC61668, FGC61669, FGC61670, FGC61672, FGC61673, FGC61674, FGC61676, FGC61665, FGC61899, and FGC61897 but would have to actually test for them as that block has not been broken to determine when between the iron age and the 1700s those each occurred.

So the question is - does your father have any Denman surname DNA matches with tested SNPs? I would guess he matches the GA Denmans in STRs and just hasn't actually been tested for a haplogroup/SNP and used the default STR estimations of M269, which since all the GA lines tested i'm familiar with are all the same very distant sub-group of M269, doesn't tell us anything. I'm totally open to disconnecting Daniel Wright Denman from James and Christopher, but it looks like those two had the same or really closely related fathers

No rush, if you really believe that you're descended from a brother of my 4th g-grandfather, I respect that. I don't have enough evidence to make a big case of it, and that's not my intent. I can't prove or disprove their kinship one way or the other, and I respect you for coming forward to discuss my concerns with me.

I'm not very knowledgeable about yDNA, so I really appreciate your explanations for this family specifically. Dad died more than 30 years ago, and was never tested. And there are no other closely related males to test, so I had to go on the circumstantial information I received in 2012. I'm sure there have been some scientific developments since then.

At any rate, I doubt it affects me much personally, if at all. There is a lot about my family that I don't know and might never find out. But I will need some time to process all of this, as it is much more complicated than I expected to find. I have instinctively been avoiding it for a long, long time. And now I see why. :D I was afraid it would require a lot of work. :D

Anyway, I've been hoping (if not spending enough time on it) to assemble the family tree as historically accurate as possible. Yet alas, here we have duplicate Christophers:

Christopher Denman

Christopher Denman

AND duplicate Felix's (make that triplicate):

Felix Gilbert Denman, Sr.

Felix Gilbert Denman, Sr.

Felix Gilbert Denman, Sr.

And then just recently I suddenly made the shocking discovery that this Felix Gilbert Denman might be very distantly related to me (if at all). So very, very complicated.

As mentioned before, I can only be certain about James Denman and Samuel Scudder Denman as sons of Daniel Denman and Deborah Denman (Scudder) so the task of verifying all the other listed children would be difficult for me, to say the least. It took me so long (literally a lifetime) to learn this much.

However, some credible documentation or references of some sort for each profile might help a lot. I've already done so with the part of my family that I've successfully researched. While I don't have a whole lot of information on them, I did my best to document what I could find. None of the others have any references at all, from what I've seen so far. Unless I overlooked it somehow.

I do not doubt that they existed, but I have to wonder how (or even if) they are actually related to my own direct ancestors. Knowing some basic facts about them would help to dispel some of that confusion.

I was told my dad was R1b1a2; however, if R-Z16294 is more accurate, that's perfectly fine. It's unexpected, but I can live with it if only I could feel enough certainty about it. However, unfortunately I'm having difficulty feeling confident about it due to the lack of reliable sources, inconsistencies, conflicting family histories, and duplicate profiles.

So again, no rush but I would like to take some time to really analyze and hopefully help solve the many problems with this part of the tree. I don't want to step on any toes, just looking for clarity and felt it was only right to bring this to everyone's attention. You need not feel obligated to make any quick fixes for my sake.

I accept the fact that I might never know for sure what my father's haplotype really was. But I am interested in learning as much as possible about the whole family, in order to put everything into perspective, so it would be nice to see the duplicates corrected, and some relevant (reliable, i.e. historical) references cited in the profiles that would tend to corroborate the basic facts. And I'm not prepared to do anything about them myself at this point, because the profiles in question are not my direct ancestors. I'm not demanding it be done right away, just saying it would be 'nice'. :)

Thanks again for the truly wonderful Denman yDNA explanation!

Possibly just duplicate Felix's rather than triplicates (I lost count, but I'm sure there are at least two).

On a side note, apparently there was also a Felix Gilbert Denman, Jr. who was the sister of Sarah Turner Fite.

Just checked - one of our Denman DNA matches has an NJ->PA line, (Thaddeus Denman b.1826) seeming to skip GA... would really be interesting to know if there are any GA Denmans that don't match this group- all US Denmans (that I know of) so far match this group, but none match any of the ones still in England. The one DNA match that has no known Denman connection has a MDKA from Wilkes Co NC, where the Wilkes GA Denmans had land prior to continuing onto Wilkes GA, and after they left the Jersey settlement in Rowan Co NC. The sons of Elizabeth Denman (Husband uncertain- maybe that 1760 immigrant John you mentioned) ended up in Franklin GA after Wilkes GA. Based on the 7 very close DNA matches (5-6 Gen for 6 of them, 6-7 gen for the other), the Franklin GA, Wilkes GA, Wilkes NC, and PA Denmans (who appear to have a NJ origin, and are a generation or two more removed) are all genetically linked for certain to a common male line ancestor no earlier than 1692, and more likely between 1729 and 1830. There appear to be many re-uses of names, many different Moses, James, Christopher, and Felix Gilberts Denmans (at least all the Felix Gilberts seem to directly descend from each other).

The specific Y-DNA SNP path is: M269 > R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF13 > DF21/S192 > S5488 > Z16294 > BY11121 > ZZ21/BY4000/BY4001 > BY12083 > Y30210/FGC61663+13 others.

That is really helpful, Tex, thank you very much.

There's a DNA testing company that has only four samples listed in their Denman dna project, and only two of those actually appear to be relevant to our family tree here:

Christopher Denman (1765 - 1834), your direct ancestor; and James Denman (1750 - 1840) my 4th g-grandfather.

Christopher's descendant's dna must have been thoroughly tested and analyzed, because it shows a very specific result (R-FGC61663) and a long string of snp markers (including M269).

However, James Denman's dna was either inferred somehow from the circumstantial evidence (pedigree chart), or else his descendant took a much simpler test, because the only result presented for him is "M269" (with no snp markers listed at all). From what I can gather though, there were no male direct descendants living, who could provide samples for him. So probably only inferred.

Therefore I believe you are right that these two individuals are likely closely related (possibly even brothers, or cousins). They share the surname, the geography, and the dna match is 'close enough', considering the circumstances. And the dna evidence apparently does not *disprove* the kinship, so I can stop worrying about that.

So now I am satisfied that the DNA report in question (OP) isn't a serious issue after all, and I can just proceed henceforth by focusing on my historical and documentary family research.

And although I found some conflicting ancestral evidence in the published biography for Judge Fite (Sarah Turner Denman's husband), I realize it is only hearsay, as there are no sources cited for it. However, I must assume the author aimed for as much accuracy as possible, otherwise he could not have had much chance of selling his 6-volume sets of books on Georgia history.

Nevertheless, I always try to present corroborating evidence/documentation whenever possible or necessary, as the case may be. And I do think it is necessary in this case, before I would consider making any changes.

I hope we can resolve the duplicates somehow, in the near future. Maybe a curator will help us with that problem. And further research might turn up some reliable sources to add to the profiles.

If I find anything else that might be useful, I'll try to remember to post it here.

Thanks again, for helping me with this! I was terribly confused about the dna :D

PS: I totally forgot to mention something I realized very recently about James Denman (although I should have known all along). Evidently he lived and died in Carroll Co. GA. And it seems that the reason I haven't been able to find his grave-site is because that particular county's graves haven't been well documented or inventoried (if that's the right word for it). Carroll Co. is practically just over the state line from Calhoun Co. AL, where Blake and Neaty eventually moved, lived, and are currently buried.

Of course I realize the Denmans were well-traveled all over north Georgia and many other states. But I think it's worth further investigation, anyway.

I also noticed a "Charles" or "Chas." Denman listed in the Georgia state roster of Revolutionary troops. Never heard of that one, although he received a lot of Georgia land (more than a thousand acres) after the war. Do you think you might have been descended from him instead of your "Christopher" (about whom I can find no 'reliable' references at all)?

I can't find a profile for that Charles, although there are others who are undoubtedly closely related (probably a son and grandson):

Charles (Chapley) H Denman

This one could be his grandson probably, and he is not connected to the world tree.

And this is probably the findagrave reference for him (real name "Chapleigh Hampton Denman". It doesn't list his parentage, but it lists his spouse and children and shows a picture of his marker.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/37098341/chapleigh-hampton-denman

There are a LOT of Denmans in this burial ground, and what I find MOST interesting is that Chapleigh's grandson was named Blake (namesake of my 3rd g-grandfather). That's more than coincidence, so I'm fully convinced the families are closely related. I wouldn't be surprised if "Charles" is actually "Chapleigh" (and both might be your "Christopher", as well). I just found this, by the way.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/37056839/blake-levi-denman

https://books.google.com/books?id=LZNJAAAAYAAJ&newbks=1&new...

I don't have time to fully explore this multi-volume set of Texas social history, but I immediately found Morgan and Leroy Denman in volume 3.

Apparently, Zulch was a ranching district, and North Zulch was where people relocated to be near the railroad station (and consequently the telegraph office). A century or so ago, the railroads brought prosperity to a lot of people.

Yes, there are only a few participants in that project since the administrator does not share any info with the participants. Since I match them, I can see those results, and a few basic information on others who don't participate in that project - there are more in the DF21 project, as the Z16294 sub-project is done via email due to GDPR concerns. The sample listing James was taken from a live person, and tested to 111 STR markers, but not SNP tested. That line groups with two other lines (the non-Denman surname from Wilkes NC) and the NJ->PA->IN Denman line in having a DYS448 value of 19, which is the ancestral value for Z16294, DF21 etc. The PA/IN line has an additional 3 STR differences in 67 markers from me, so that is the slightly more distant generation to the common ancestor. The Wilkes-non-Denman has only 1 additional difference across 67 markers, and the There are 4 other high-marker testers that have DYS448 value of 18, so is probable that they share a common ancestor where that copy error occurred. This is my branch, and one of the other testers is a 1C1R to me where we share a specific grandfather/great-grandfather - I have 1 STR different from him across 111 markers as well. The one other result showing FGC61663 is most likely a 4C2R to me, he and I tested Big-Y which discovered all the SNPs of the line below Z16294 - I have one of the FGCxxxxx series that is specific to my 2nd Great Grandfather, and likely that a subset of 11-12 of the FGCxxxxx series will be the unique marker for the US Denman family, potentially having a unique SNP per branch, if a few more known-pedigree Denmans SNP test via Big-Y. The other FGC61663 is 3 different across 111 markers, but only 1 different across another 415 markers (the Big-Y STRs seem to be more stable than the 111 in the FTDNA panel). The last branch (Moses Hampton Denman b1803 descendant) is 2 different across 111 markers. There are 4 more lower-marker tests but those are just not of high enough resolution to do much with. When charting it out, I also used 24 Autosomal matches to triangulate - the Y-DNA are right at the 5th cousin matching limit, as we autosomal tested older generations up several lines which match each other, and the younger generation, the younger don't atDNA match because on the segment size limitations right around 5th ish cousin equivalents (4C2R etc...). It's too bad discussion can't post images as it's a visual problem to solve

Several of the GA Denman lines ended up in TX, one tester's line went to Madison CoTX, another to Kaufman and later Brown Co TX - a distant cousin of theirs apparently also owned a huge historic ranch (the El Capote) outside San Antonio, and his house is now a city park https://www.sanantonio.gov/ParksAndRec/Parks-Facilities/All-Parks-F...
My family stayed in AL, and it is just a coincidence that I live in San Antonio now...

https://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM101X8_El_Capote_Ranch

I greatly appreciate any clues you have about which specific Denman might have been married to a Sarah Cagle (b1802 NC), who relocated for a time from Franklin GA to Jackson/Marshall Co AL after being widowed, and had a daughter Susan Denman (1830-1869) who married James R Bryan in Franklin Co GA and moved to Jackson/Marshall/Limestone Co AL after marriage. Susan's brother James L Denman (b1832 Franklin Co GA, d 1863 in the 15th GA Volunteers) is the current most likely candidate for my first Denman surnamed male-line ancestor...

The Chapleigh Denman (Charles (Chapley) H Denman ) you linked may be the brother of the Abel H Denman (1835-1899) descendant who is in the DYS448-19 group...

You've been very helpful, thanks very much. I'm going to take some time to process everything and do some more research.

re: Curatorial help
I'm following this discussion, but y'all are doing a great job doing the real work of sorting things out. When you get to the point of needing to move, detach, or merge profiles which you can't do yourselves, then post a note here with very specific links & directions (e.g. "move X to be child of Y & Z", or "please merge A & B, detaching the incorrect parents of B" ... with those 'letters' actually being links to the profiles).

Also, if there is specific family centered around a particular 'focus' profile which are known (and documented on the profiles) to be complete & correct (parents, spouse[s], siblings, and children), then you can ask to have the MP flag set on all of them AND to have the Relationship Lock (RL) set on that focus profile. That can thus provide an "island of stability", resistant to future changes, which can be extended further as information is documented & verified.

Thank you, Dan! And many thanks to Tex! I truly believe we have a great team here.

Felix Gilbert Denman, Sr.
I disconnected him from being his own father.
Please check the profiles?

Felix Gilbert Denman, Sr.
I disconnected him from being his own father.
Please check the profiles?