Ada de Botetourt

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From: Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com> Subject: Re: Seeking Stapleton/St. Philibert connection to St. Philibert/Botetourte Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 22:04:39 GMT References: <ECELJLLLKGANJMKHGAIDMEGOEKAA.kevanbarton@adelphia.net> <5cf47a19.0405190949.ce910f6@posting.google.com> In-Reply-To: <5cf47a19.0405190949.ce910f6@posting.google.com>

Douglas Richardson wrote:

Dear Kevan ~

Thank you for your good post.

Yes, Alice Saint Philibert, wife of Sir Brian Stapleton, was the
daughter of Sir John Saint Philibert and his wife, Ada Botetourt. For
your interest, I've copied below the account of Sir John Saint
Philibert and his wife, Ada, from my new book, Plantagenet Ancestry.
I believe the evidence of Alice's parentage can be found in VCH
Yorkshire N.R. 2 (1923): 181.

If you have any other questions, please let me know.

Everyone reading this post will have at least one question: from which of the souces listed below is the certainty about Ada's family derived?

CP is quoted for her having been "said to be da. of John de Botetourt, of Belchamp Otton, Essex", and Gerald Paget that she was "probably daughter of John Lord Botetourt". The only indications offered that appear to be more definite than this are from Gage in 1838 and Copinger in 1909 - secondary works which, along with any primary sources cited in them and the property conveyance records given below, were available to the CP editors and Paget.

Is there any proof hidden in the list of citations, such as Richardson demands in other threads, or are we now supposed to accept this Botetourt parentage as certain based on the say-so of Gage and the repetition of this by Copinger and Richardson?

Peter Stewart

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: royalancestry@msn.com

• * * * * * * * * * * *
  

Source: Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval
Families (2004), by Douglas Richardson, pp. 696-697:

7. ADA BOTETOURT, married (1st) before 1322 (date of settlement) JOHN
DE SAINT PHILIBERT, Knt., of Eaton Hastings, Cresswell (in Bray),
Hanney, Sulham, etc., Berkshire, and Tormarton and Southrop,
Gloucestershire, etc., son and heir of Hugh de Saint Philibert, Knt.,
of Eaton Hastings, Cresswell, Hanney, etc., by his wife, Alice. He
was born about 1293 (proved his age in 1314). They had two sons,
John, Knt. [1st Lord Saint Philibert], and Thomas, and three
daughters, Maud, Alice, and Margaret (or Margery). In 1318 he went on
a pilgrimage to St. Iago. He was on service overseas under the Earl
of Norfolk in 1320. In 1322 her parents settled the manor of Chignal
Smealey, Essex on them and his heirs. He fought in Gascony in 1325
and 1331.

SIR JOHN DE SAINT PHILIBERT died testate shortly before 22 Feb. 1333 in Gascony. His widow, Ada, married (2nd) before 1346 RICHARD FITZ SIMON, Knt., K.G. (living 1347–8), of Dunmow, Essex. She died shortly before Whitsuntide 1349.

References: N.H. Nicolas, Controversy between Scrope and Grosvenor 2
(1832): 288, footnote 3. J. Gage, Hist. & Antiq. of Suffolk: Thingoe
Hundred (1838): 41–45 ("Ada his wife, daughter of John de Botetourt").
G.F. Beltz, Memorials of the Most Noble Order of the Garter (1841):
cxxxxix. C.C.R. 1346–1349 (1905): 258–259. W.A. Copinger, Manors of
Suffolk 3 (1909): 149 ("Ada his wife, daughter of John de Botetourt").
Cal. IPMs 8 (1913): 173–174 [shows Ada, wife of John de St.
Philibert, and her heirs had the manor of Belchamp Otton, with
advowsons of Belchamp Otton and St. Ethelbert, Essex, by conveyance
from John Botetourt (died 1339)]. Feet of Fines for Essex 2
(1913–1928): 196, 206. VCH Berkshire 3 (1923): 100 (St. Philibert
arms: Bendy argent and azure). VCH Yorkshire N.R. 2 (1923): 181. VCH
Berkshire 4 (1924): 529 (St. Philibert arms: Bendy argent and azure).
C. Moor, Knights of Edward I 4 (H.S.P. 83) (1931): 194–195 (his arms:
Bende de argent e de azure de vi peces). C.P. 11 (1949): 365–366 (sub
Saint Philibert) (wife Ada not identified) (Saint Philibert arms:
bendee dargent et dazur); 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 321–322 (sub Waleys) (wife
Ada "said to be da. of John de Botetourt, of Belchamp Otton, Essex").
G. Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 483: 1–3 (sub St. Philibert)
(Ada, "probably daughter of John Lord Botetourt"). VCH Gloucester 7
(1981).

kevanbarton@adelphia.net ("Kevan Barton") wrote in message news:<ECELJLLLKGANJMKHGAIDMEGOEKAA.kevanbarton@adelphia.net>...

Folks,

On page 294-295 (1), it shows an Alice Philibert, dau and h. of John St.
Philibert, Lord of Waterton, marrying Bryan Stapleton. I was wondering if
this is the same John St. Philibert that married Ada de Botetourte (2). If
not, is there a relationship between these two St. Philiberts?

(1)The Visitation of Yorkshire in the Years 1563 and 1564, made by William
Flower, Esquire, Norroy King of Arms[:ITAL], XVI (London: Harleian Society,
1881)<, [CD]>.

(2) RD-600, page 457

Cheers,
Kevan

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This thread:

•Seeking Stapleton/St. Philibert connection to St. Philibert/Botetourte by "Kevan Barton" <kevanbarton@adelphia.net> ◦Re: Seeking Stapleton/St. Philibert connection to St. Philibert/Botetourte by Douglas Beahm <dbeahm@earthlink.net> ◦Re: Seeking Stapleton/St. Philibert connection to St. Philibert/Botetourte by royalancestry@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) ■Re: Seeking Stapleton/St. Philibert connection to St. Philibert/Botetourte by Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com>

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