Amaudra, possible daughter of Charlemagne & Himiltrude

Himiltrude’s 2 children:

1Amaudru
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne Note: Charles Cawley’s MedLands has no record of this daughter

2Pippin the Hunchback (ca. 769–811)

Please see Charlemagne Project for Source Details

From Wikipaedia: Charlemagne's first relationship was with Himiltrude. The nature of this relationship is variously described as concubinage, a legal marriage, or a Friedelehe.[35] (Charlemagne put her aside when he married Desiderata.) The union with Himiltrude produced two children: - Amaudru, a daughter, and Pippin the Hunchback (ca. 769–811) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne

[http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Project_Charlemagne]

Charlemagne's children with Himiltrude (regarded by some as legally married)

Pippin the Hunchback (c769-811); no recorded children
Little disagreement about him.

Amaudru (c770); three recorded children; and later generations
Not mentioned by several researchers, including Medieval Lands. Some say she may be confused with a niece or another daughter. Medieval Lands lists a daughter (by an unnamed mistress "2") "CHROTHAIS [Rota%C3%AFde] ([784]-after 800, maybe after 814)" then refers to her as "Ruodhaidem"; but despite the name and birth date similarity that site shows her as distinct from Madelgard's daughter. Reference to her mother on Die Genealogie der Franken und Frankreichs, noted by Wikipedia, says she later married a Count of Paris.

http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Amaudru_(c770-) Amaudru Carolingian was born on an unknown date to Charlemagne (747-814) and Himiltrude (c742-c780) . Amaudru married Begon de Paris .

Children of Amaudru and Begon de Paris (c757-816) Landrade de Paris (?-?)

Leuthard II de Paris (806-858)

Eberhard de Paris (c808-c865)

The Problem of Count Begue & his 3 possible wives

Count Begue/Beggo/ Begon has 2 (or 3) equally likely wives according to original sources – but sharing descendents Luithard, Eberhard, Susanna:

Either his wife (and mother of these 3 kids) was Charlemagne’s daughter:

1) Alpaida (by Adaltrude), or

2) Amaudra (by Himiltrude) - less convincingly sourced than the other two, at the moment ,

or she was Charlemagne’s granddaughter:

3) Alpais (through his son, Louis I)

Sources: From Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands database
From Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands database

[BEGO ([755/60]-28 Oct 816). The primary source which establishes that Bego was the son of Gerard has not so far been identified. Marquis de Septimanie: Bego governed the county of Toulouse as "marchio" for Septimania from 806. He was chambrier, equivalent to viceroy, for Louis King of Aquitaine (son of Emperor Charlemagne)[65]. Comte de Paris in [815], succeeding comte Stephanus. He founded the Abbey of Saint-Maur-des-Fossés near Paris. The necrology of the abbey of Saint-Germain-des-Prés records the death "V Kal Nov" of "Begoni comitis"[66].

[m firstly ---. There is no proof of this possible first marriage of Bego. However, as noted below, if his wife Alpais was the daughter of Emperor Louis, there would have been a considerable age difference between her and Bego, which suggests the possibility of an earlier marriage.]

m [secondly] ([806]%29 ALPAIS, illegitimate daughter of [Emperor LOUIS I & his mistress ---] ([793/94]-23 Jul 852 or after, bur [Reims]). Flodoard refers to "Ludowicus Alpheidi filie sue uxori Begonis comitis"[67]. The Annales Hildesheimenses name "filiam imperatoris…Elpheid" as the wife of "Bicgo de amici regis" when recording the death of her husband[68]. Settipani discusses the debate about the paternity of Alpais, preferring the theory that Emperor Charles I was her father[69]. If Emperor Louis was her father, it is unlikely that she was born before [793/94], given his known birth date in 778. It would therefore be chronologically tight for her to have had [three] children by her husband before his death in 816. [Sharon%E2%80%99s Note: Not really – it makes her 23yrs old when he dies. Charlemagne’s wife Hildegard had had 9 children by the time she died at 23 or 24yrs] However, no indication has been found in primary sources of the ages of these children when their father died. The question of her paternity is obviously not beyond doubt, but it is felt preferable to show her as the probable daughter of Emperor Louis in view of the clear statement in Flodoard. If Alpais was the daughter of Emperor Louis, it is likely that she was not her husband's only wife in view of his estimated birth date. After her husband died, she became abbess of Saint-Pierre-le-Bas at Reims in [817]. She was still there 29 May 852.

Bego & his [second] wife had three children:

i) LIUTHARD . Flodoard names "ipsius Alpheidis vel filiorum eius Letardi et Ebrardi" when recording their mother's donation to the church of Reims[70].

ii) EBERHARD . Flodoard names "ipsius Alpheidis vel filiorum eius Letardi et Ebrardi" when recording their mother's donation to the church of Reims[71].

iii) SUSANNA ([805/10]-). The primary source which establishes that Susanna was the daughter of Bego has not so far been identified. "Vulfardus" donated property to Saint-Benoît-sur-Loire for the souls of "genitoris mei Vulfardi et genetrice mea Susannane necnon et germanorum fratrum meorum Adelardo, Vulgrino, Ymo et sorore mee Hildeburga vel nepote meo Vulgrino" by charter dated 2 Nov 889[72]. m ([825/30]) VULFHARD, son of ---.

This interesting discussion that Justin alerted me to suggests (amongst other things) that Himiltrude's Amaudra is also the Alpaida we have as Amaltrude's child. Posting it here and on Alpaida's profile, so I don't lose it forever [Sharon 2014]

Richard Borthwick 6/10/98

At 09:31 PM 7/05/98 GMT, you wrote:

In article <1.5.4.32.19980507141252.006c9808@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>,
rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au (Richard Borthwick) wrote:

X-Sender: rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 14:40:37 +0800
To: Richard Borthwick <rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
From: Richard Borthwick <rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: deCOURTNEY
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by cyllene.uwa.edu.au

id OAA08002

At 18:44 6/05/98 -0700, you wrote:

UTZ wrote:

20

In a message dated 5/5/98 5:56:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
EDL...@MAIL2.LCIA.COM writes:

20

     1       Emperor of the West Charlemagne 747 - 813/14    ref #:<br/>

C450-13

             +Himiltrude     Abt. 742 -<br/>
     2       Aupais  Abt. 738 -      ref #: (=C4191-14)<br/>
             +Count Begue de Paris   Abt. 738 - 816  ref #: =C4191-14<br/>

20

Sorry to nit pick but how can this be so. We have both Aupais and her

husband

b. before Charlemagne and his wife.

Hmm. They do it with mirrors; they make up for it by volume; the
check's in the mail . . .=20

Delete the birth dates for both - Weis doesn't list any. Delete also
Aupais' death date.

--=20
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.

Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com

References:

=C4 =3D Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.<br/>
AAP =3D Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or=20<br/>
      [Pres. # : page].<br/>
BP1 =3D _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].<br/>
BPci =3D _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].<br/>
BRF =3D Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].<br/>
BxP =3D _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].<br/>
EC1 =3D Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].=20<br/>
EC2 =3D Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,<br/>
      [page].=20<br/>
EC3 =3D Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,=20<br/>
      [page].=20<br/>
F =3D Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].<br/>
S =3D Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed.<br/>
W =3D Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.<br/><br/><br/>

Alpais (b.ca.794 d.after 852 m.ca.806) wife of count Bego (b.ca.755/60
d.816) was the daughter of Louis the Pious (son of Charlemagne) by an
unknown mistress. As abbess of S.-Pierre-le-Bas at Rheims Alpais witnesses
as daughter of Louis the Pious [Sources: K F Werner "Nachkommen Karls des
Grossen" in Braunfels (ed) *Karl der Grosse: Lebenswerk und Nachleben* cf
Hlawitschka's critique of Werner's account in *Anfaenge de Hauses
Habsburg-Lothringen* pp.165-169.]. Below is a sketch of Hlawitschka's
reconstruction. The main difference from Werner's reconstruction is that
Hlawitschka has Susanna as the child of Bego by a first marriage and not by
Alpais. That Bego had such a marriage is highly likely since he was 45/50 by
the time of his marriage with Alpais. It is also certain that Susanna was
Bego's daughter. If Susanna had been the daughter of Alpais then the
marriage of Susanna's granddaughter, Adelheid, to Louis the Stammerer would
have been within the prohibited degrees (4:2 through Louis the Pious). The
broken horizontal line indicates highly probable siblinghood and the dotted
verticals indicate highly probable filiation. I hope the table holds up
under transmission (it is my first effort at such a table)!

  Louis the Pious # NN     Gerhard<br/>
                  |        oo Rotrud<br/>
                  |           :<br/>
                  |          _:_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _<br/>
                Alpais (2)oo Bego oo(1) NN                  Leuthard oo<br/>
                           |       :                        Grimhild<br/>
                           |       :                             :    <br/>
     ______________________|  _____:_                            :<br/>
     Leuthard     Eberhard    Susanna oo Wulfhard I         Ingeltrude<br/>
                                             |              oo Odo<br/>
                                             |                   |<br/>
   __________________________________________|__________         |<br/>
   Wulfhard II   NN    Immo   Hildeburg Adalhard Vulgrin    Ermentrud<br/>
                  |                         |               oo Charles II=<br/>
                  |                         |               "the Bald"<br/>
                  |                         |                    |         =<br/>
                  |               __________|___________         |<br/>
               Vulgrin            Wulfhard III  Adelheid oo Louis II "the<br/>
                                                            Stammerer"<br/>

   Moriarty, p. 23, comments:  "She [Alpais] is often called a natural<br/>

daughter of the Emperor Lewis the Pious but other authorities style her a
natural daughter of Charlemagne, which is undoubtedly, for chronological
reasons, correct."

   Settipani in "La prehistoire des Capetiens," p. 200, lists Alpais as<br/>

daughter if Charlemagne and Himiltrude. (See also Table 5 at the end of
the book.) He estimates Alpais was born ca 765-770; she died in 852,
after 23 Jul.

   On page 316, note 857, Settipani reviews the differences between<br/>

Werner and Hlawitschka, and concludes that Adelaide, wife of Louis II,
descends from Beggo and Alpais. I reconstruct the relationships as
follows:

Hildegarde = (3) Charlemagne (1) = Himiltrude

         |                     |<br/>
     Louis I                Alpais = Beggo<br/>
         |                         |<br/>
         |                ‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹<br/>
           |                  |                         |<br/>
           |               Leuthard                  Susanna<br/>
           |                  |                         |<br/>
           |             Ingeltrude                     |<br/>
           |                  |                         |<br/>
      Charles II = = = = Ermentrud                  Adelhard<br/>
                    |                                   |<br/>
                Louis II = = = = = = = = = = = = =  Adelaide<br/><br/>
   While there are differing numbers of generations in the lines, they<br/>

do not seem implausible. I have:

        Charlemagne (747-814)<br/>
        Louis I (778-840)<br/>
        Charles II (823-877)<br/>
        Louis II (846-879)  {3 generations in 99 years}<br/>
        Alpais (765/770-852)<br/>
        Ermentrud (830-869)  {3 generations in 60-65 years}<br/>
        Adelaide (855-aft 900)  {3 generations in 85-90 years}<br/><br/>
   Note that I have Leuthard, who is listed as both a brother and as a<br/>

son of Beggo by Borthwick, as the same individual.

--
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu

Just what C Settipani’s own reconstruction of the “Paris group” is not clear from his *La prehistoire...* p.316 note 857. He clearly disagrees with Werner and Hlawitschka et al. over the paternity of Alpais (pp.200-203). When I saw Alan’s reconstruction I thought Settipani was adopting some such scheme which identifies Leuthard son of Alpais with Leuthard count of Fezensac. In his paper on the Angevins in Keats-Rohan’s *Family Trees ...* on p.244 we get some clue about how CS thinks this group is structured. Leuthard was doing his thing as count of Fezensac in 801 and Settipani gives him a conjectural birth date of 765 and a known death date period i.e. after 811. in this scheme for Leuthard CS agrees with Werner et al. On p.244 Leuthard is given Ingeltud and Adalhard (the seneschal) as two of his children. If Alpais was as CS says born 765/70 then Leuthard of Fezensac cannot be her son. We know that Alpais had sons named Leuthard and Eberhard. So on almost any scheme there have to be two Leuthards - one a contemporary of count Bego and Alpais and one a generation later. What I call the “Vezelay group” are the people mentioned by count Gerhard and his wife Bertha in their foundation charter for that abbey. Gerhard’s parents are named as Leuthard and Grimhild and Bertha’s parents are named as Hugo and Bava/Ava. Two very close relatives are also named - Adalhard and Liutfrid. Quite independently of this charter, Hugo and Ava are attested as a couple - their daughter Irmgard married Lothat I. Liutfrid (d.865) was the empress’s brother hence a brother of Bertha. The inference usually made is that if Liutfrid is the brother of Bertha then it is most likely that Adalhard was the brother of Gerhard. The question then is this: is Leuthard father of Gerhard (hereafter ‘Leuthard-G’) in the Vezelay group identical with Leuthard of Fezensac (‘Leuthard-F’)or Leuthard son of Alpais (‘Leuthard-A’) or with neither?

The answer to this question lies partly in the dating one gives to Leuthard-G and Grimhild. We know the death dates for Hugo and Ava (837, 839 resp.). Lothar I was born in 795 and married Irmgard in 821. This suggests that Irmgard may have been born about 795/800. Bertha and Gerhard according to the Vezelay cartulary married in or before 819. Vollmer notes that Hugo’s career was probably underway by 807 and certainly by 811. These factors would suggest that Hugo father of Bertha was probably born about 780 (at the latest and maybe earlier). Something like this birth-date would seem to be OK for Leuthard-G. Would this sort of chronology make it possible for Leuthard-G to be identical with Leuthard-A? Most definitely not if Alpais was the daughter of Louis the Pious since if Alpais was Louis’s child she would have been born about 794. On this Louis-as-father hypothesis Leuthard was born about 806. If Alpais was the daughter of Charlemagne and Himiltrud, she was born 765/70. Bego was a (recent?) widower by 14 July 789 when he alone made a grant to Lorsch in memory of his wife Williburga. My guess is that his marriage with Alpais would be in the period 790/95. So on a Charlemagne-as-father-of-Alpais hypothesis it would seem that highly unlikely that Leuthard-G was identical with Leuthard A.

There are potentially four Leuthards. In 811 Stephan count of Paris and his wife Amaldruda made a donation of Sucy-en-Brie to Notre Dame de Paris which was witnessed by in one version by ‘Leuthardi comitis’ and in another by ‘Leuthardi germanum Stephani comitis’. As R Louis points out there has been a dispute about the authenticity of the texts we have of this charter. But he thinks that the Leuthard (‘Leuthard-P’) who undoubtedly witnessed the autograph was a brother and the successor of Stephan as count of Paris. Is Leuthard-G identical with Leuthard-P? As far as I can ascertain commentators agree on this identification (even though in my view it is still conjectural). So the question remaining is whether Leuthard-G/P is identical with Leuthard-F.

This seems to be the usual identification though not the one made by Chaume (p.543) (who claims that all three Leuthards are identical but I have been unable to locate his argument therefor). Levillain (in an article I have not seen but which is reported by Louis) sees Leuthard-F as a first cousin of Bego (hence three Leuthards) with Leuthard-G being the brother of Stephan count of Paris. There is no nice clincher showing Leuthard-G identical with Leuthard-F (such as a reference to a Grimhild as a wife of Leuthard-F!), but a coherent history of the careers of Stephan in Paris, of Leuthard-F and Bego in Aquitaine and of a Leuthard and Bego counts of Paris can and have been constructed which invites this identification. CS too seems to make this identification (see above). If this identification is made then Leuthard-G/P/F has a conjectural date of birth much earlier than 780 i.e. more like 765 as posited by CS and others. This earlier date is determined largely by his Paris and Aquitaine career, his putative parents being Gerhard count of Paris and Rotrud and his death in or after 811.

R Louis *Girart, comte de Vienne (...819-877) et ses fondations monastiques* (Auxerre, 1946) L Levillain “Les comtes de Paris a l’epoque franque” *Le Moyen Age* 41 (1941) 139-205 L Levillain “Girart, comte de Vienne” *Le Moyen Age* 55 (1949), 225-245 C Settipani *La prehistoire des capetiens 481-987: premiere partie* (Villeneuve d’Asq, 1993) C Settipani “Les comtes d’Anjou et leurs alliances aux Xe et Xie siecles” in

• Family Trees and the Roots of Politics: the prosopography of Britain and France from the tenth to the twelfth century* (Woodbridge, 1997) edited by K S B Keats Rohan, pp.211-268 M Chaume *Les origines du duche de Bourgogne* I (Dijon, 1925) The references to E Hlawitschka and K F Werner have already been given in this discussion. The first Levillain paper is the one I note above as not having read (though I am trying to get it).

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