Ebles 1er de Roucy, comte de Roucy, comte de Reims

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Ebles 1er 'le Fort/Fortis' de Roucy, comte de Roucy, comte de Reims

Also Known As: "Elbo", "Eblo I /De Rheims/", "Count of Reims I /Ebles/", "Archeveque"
Birthdate:
Birthplace: Roucy, Aisne, Nord-Pas-de-Calais-Picardie, France
Death: May 11, 1033 (44-60)
Reims, Marne, Grand Est, France
Place of Burial: Reims, Marne, Grand Est, France
Immediate Family:

Son of Ebles de Roucy, seigneur d'Aquitaine and N.N. de Mâcon, dau of Aubri II & Ermentrude
Husband of Béatrix de Hainaut
Father of Hedwige de Roucy; Adelaide de Roucy, comtesse de Montdidier; Arthur de Roucy; William De Roucy and Nicholas Unknown, I, of Rumigny
Brother of Lietaud I, seigneur de Marle; Judith de Roucy, Comtesse de Rethel and Eudes de Roucy

Occupation: comte de Roucy (997 - 1033), comte de Reims (1021/22 - 1033), I dame then Archbishop of Reims (27 Aug 1021-1033)
Managed by: Private User
Last Updated:

About Ebles 1er de Roucy, comte de Roucy, comte de Reims

From Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebles_I_of_Roucy

Ebles I of Roucy (died 11 May 1033) was count of Roucy from 1000 to 1033 and archbishop of Reims from 1021 to 1033.

Possible Family Origins (Curator note: see below discussion by TAF)

In 'Genealogiciæ Scriptoris Fusniacensis he is referred as the brother of:

Ebles I of Roucy († 11 May 1033 ), Count of Roucy and Archbishop of Rheims ( 1021 -1033). Eudes (Odo) Roucy, called "the Strong" († 27 August after 1021)[3], lord of Rumigny. Liétaud (also Letard or Letald) de Roucy, Lord of Marle.[2][4] Liétaud's daughter Adèle de Marle married first Aubry, Viscount of Coucy, and second the scandalous Crusader Enguerrand I, Lord of Coucy, with whom she had issue. Yvette (possibly either Judith or Dada) de Roucy[2] who married either Manasses II or Manasses III of Rethel.[5][6] Although he is traditionally considered to have been the son of his predecessor, Giselbert, Count of Roucy and Reims and an unnamed daughter of William III "Towhead", Duke of Aquitaine, no contemporary document mentions a wife or children for Giselbert. Instead, a novel theory by Jean-Noël Mathieu[5] resolves some inconsistencies by placing Giselbert as his matrilineal great uncle.

The new study, based on onomastic data, suggests that Eble I was the son of Eble de Poitiers (son of William IV, Duke of Aquitaine and Emma of Blois) and unnamed daughter of Aubry II, Count of Mâcon and Ermentrude of Roucy, Giselbert of Roucy's sister.

Mathieu further notes that the conventional theory does not take into account that:

The first name Liétaud is traditionally associated with the Counts of Mâcon, but not with the Roucy family; The first name Eudes is traditionally associated with the Robertians, the Herbetiens, or the House of Blois;[7] The lands of Rumigny and Coucy had previously belonged to the Counts of Blois, but later passed to the Roucy line.

Marriage and Descendants

He married Beatrice of Hainaut, the daughter of Reginar IV, Count of Mons and Hedwig of France (daughter of Hugh Capet). From this union he had:

1. Alix, who succeeded him, and was married to Hilduin IV of Montdidier, Count of Ramerupt and Roucy, by whom she was the mother of Ebles II of Roucy. Her daughter, Margaret de Roucy, married Hugh, Count of Clermont, and they were the parents of Adeliza, who married Gilbert Fitz Richard;

2. Hedwig, who inherited the lands of Rumigny after the death of her uncle, Eudes, and that married Geoffrey IV, Lord of Florennes.

Around 1020, Ebles separated from his wife[8][5] and took holy orders, being therefore elected archbishop of Reims.[1] He also became count of Reims in 1023 and afterwards bound the county to the archdiocese. Beatrice then went on to marry Manasses de Ramerupt.

1. [EBLES (-11 May 1033). The Genealogiciæ Scriptoris Fusniacensis names "Lebaldus de Malla et…Iveta comitissa de Retest" as brother and sister of "Ebalus de Roceio"[389]. Comte de Roucy 997. The Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines records the succession in 1023 as archbishop of Reims of "Ebalus qui fuit comes de Roseio"[390]. Archbishop of Reims 1021. Moranvillé casts doubt on the co-identity of Ebles Comte de Roucy with Ebles Archbishop of Reims[391]. He deems significant that Alberic uses “Roseio” in the passage cited above, whereas in all other passages in which he refers to the Roucy family he uses “Roceio”. He also cites two sources which report the appointment of the new archbishop but make no reference to his reported Roucy origin. Firstly, a letter of Fulbert Bishop of Chartres addressed to Guy Bishop of Soissons dated 1021[392], and secondly Hariulf’s Chronicle of Saint-Riquier[393]. Both these sources refer only briefly to the archbishop, without any description of his background, so the absence of any reference in them to his antecedents would not be surprising. As for the difference in spelling Roseio/Roceio, this could be explained by a simple mistake or transcription error. In any case, no reference has been found to any “comte de Roussy/Rousy”, as opposed to Roucy, at that time. It is correct that there are numerous examples of information in Alberic which is disproved by other primary sources. However, they are far outnumbered by cases in which his information is corroborated, and are insufficient to conclude that Alberic should be assumed to be unreliable. The Annales Mosomagenses record the death in 1033 of “Oebalus Remorum archiepiscopus”[394]. The necrology of Reims records the death “V Id Mai” of “dominus Ebalus archiepiscopus” and his donation of “ecclesiam de Betignivilla”[395].

m (divorced before 1021) as her first husband, BEATRIX de Hainaut, daughter of REGINAR IV Comte de Hainaut & his wife Hedwige de France (after [996]-). The Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines names "Beatricem" as daughter of "Rainero comiti de Hainaco" & his wife Hedwige, naming her husband "Ebalus de Roceio"[396]. The Genealogiæ Scriptoris Fusniacensis gives more details, naming "Beatricem" daughter of "Hadevidem…comitissam Hainonensium" and specifying that she married "Ebalus de Roceio, cuius frater fuit Lebaldus de Malla et soror Iveta comitissa de Roitest" and later "Manasses cui agnomen Calva-asina"[397]. She married secondly ([1021]%29 Manassès de Ramerupt "Calva-asina" [Montdidier]. Comte Ebles & his wife had two children:

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His parentage has been the subject of much discussion and dispute, with many conflicting interpretations. Ebles and his apparent siblings (Eudes/Odo "the Strong", Lietard de Marle, and Jutta Countess of Rethel) have long been posited as children of Gislebert de Roucy because of inheritance of the Count of Roucy title. However, recent scholarship by Jean-Noel Mathieu (20000; see Todd Farmerie's summary, below) problematizes this model and presents an alternative which places these four instead as children of Eudes of Poitou and an unnamed daughter of Aubri II de Macon and Ermentrude.

From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> Subject: Mathieu: Parentage of Ebles, Count of Roucy Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:28:09 -0700

Jean-Noel Mathieu, La succession au comte de Roucy aux environs de l'an mil. Les origines de l'archeveque de Reims Ebles (1021-1033). in Onomastique et Parente dans l'Occident medieval, K.S.B. Keats-Rohan and C. Settipani, eds., (2000) pp. 75-84.

In 967, Renaud, Count of Roucy died, leaving four children: Bruno, Gislebert, Ermentrude, and another daughter, name unknown, who married Fromond II of Sens. Bruno (a name which by this time seemed to mark those destined for the church) became Bishop of Langres, while Gislebert succeeded his father as Count of Roucy, dying about 1000. At this time (in fact, for a period before) Roucy passes into a period of obscurity, which only resolves with the appearance of Ebles, Count of Roucy, in the 1020s, who was likewise made Archbishop of Reims. Ebles has traditionally been placed in a direct line of succession, viewed as son of Gislebert, but Gislebert is not known to have married or had children, while several other factors raise red flags (i.e. the name Ebles has no prior exemplar in this family, the time from the death of Renaud to the appearance of Ebles seems long for only one intervening generation). This leads Mathieu to conclude that Ebles was not son of Gislebert, and came about his title through a less direct route.

Ebles' family consisted of a brother, Eudes, known from contemporary documents, and two siblings, Letaud of Marle and Jutta, wife of Manasses of Rethel found in an ancient genealogical source from Foigny. (Jutta is not discussed further, but while Ebles apparently d. 1033, Manasses was not even active until 1066, and was still living in 1081 - the chronology doesn't work, so there must be some sort of error here, as others have pointed out). This gives us a group of names, Ebles, Eudes, and Letaud (leaving out Jutta because of the chronological difficulties) that can be useful in identifying their kinship. Also of use are the titles themselves. Rumigny, Coucy (in the hands of the maternal grandson of Letaud, and thought to have come through this line) and Reims itself have links to the Blois counts, and specifically the descendants of Thibaud with Liegarde of Vermandois. This is where the data ends, and the hypotheses begin.

The name Ebles appears prominantly only in the family of Ebles Manzer, Count of Poitou. His grandson William II (IV), Count of Poitou, married Emma, sister of Eudes I, Count of Blois and son of Thibaud and Liegarde, so a descent from this marriage would seemingly explain not only the names Ebles and Eudes, but also the descent of some of the smaller holdings of the family. The chronology is a bit of a challenge because of the multiple marriages and children of William III (V), but it would seem that Ebles Count of Roucy would belong in the generation of his grandchildren, and a possible candidate for his father is an Ebles, brother of Count William III, who is known from only one document dating from the reign on Robert II of France.

Such a solution leaves unaddressed the succession to Roucy itself, as well as the name Letaud, and so provisionally accepting Eudes as father, we turn to the maternal lineage. The most obvious earlier occurance for Letaud is the father of Count Aubri of Macon. This man married a woman named Ermentrude, and from an early date, she has been identified with the daughter of Renaud de Roucy, and subsequent wife of Otto-William, Count of Burgundy. However, recently it has been argued that there are difficulties with this identification, mostly chronological. However, a closer look shows that these problems can be resolved, and an early source specifically states that the widow of Aubri married William, and from this marriage came Otto, Count of Macon. Thus it would seem that the name Letaud and the Roucy inheritance would have been united in a child of the marriage of Aubri II with Ermentrude de Roucy.

(As an aside, this resolution of the chronological difficulties with identifying Ermentrude as wife both of Aubri and Otto-William requires the supposition that Aubri married twice, and that Beatrice, wife of Geoffrey of Gatinais, ancestress of the Anjou Counts, must have been by the earlier wife. The author hypothesizes that she may have been a sister of Hugh Capet. While not explained, the reasoning would seem to be based on the name Beatrice, a name found in that family since Robert (I) married Beatrice of Vermandois. Other writings in the same compilation add a generation, making Beatrice daughter of Aubri by a daughter of Geoffrey, Vicomte of Orleans, who in turn is made brother-in-law, of Hugh Capet.)

By hypothesizing a marriage between Eudes of Poitou and a daughter of Aubri II and Ermentrude, Mathieu brings together the various names, Ebles, Eudes and Letaud, with the various titles, Rumigny, Coucy, Reims, and most importantly Roucy. (It would also recapitulate a common pattern, in which brothers William and Ebles of Poitou married half-sisters daughters of Ermentrude.) The solution is not without problems - most importantly, Ebles and his wife Beatrice of Hainaut would both be great-grandchildren of William I (III) (assuming the correct identification of Adelaide, wife of Hugh Capet). Mathieu suggests that this marriage, which produced just two daughters, may have been ended in premature separation due to consanginity.

That, then, is the Mathieu hypothesis.

taf


  • *********** Older data

Ebles I, de Roucy , Count of Reims

M, b. circa 994, d. 11 May 1033

Last Edited 20 Sep 2006

Marriage* Ebles I, de Roucy , Count of Reims married Bâeatrice, Countess of Hainault, daughter of Rainier IV, Count de Hainault and Adwige (Avoise) Capet Princess of France.

Birth* Ebles I, de Roucy , Count of Reims was born circa 994 in Roucy, Aisne, France.

Death* He died on 11 May 1033.

Family

Bâeatrice, Countess of Hainault b. circa 998, d. 11 May 1033

Children

   * Avice (Avoise) de Roucy b. c 1002, d. a 1070
   * Alice (Adela) de Roucy+ b. c 1014, d. 1063

Ebles I of Roucy (died 11 May 1033) was count of Roucy from 1000 to 1033 and archbishop of Reims from 1021 to 1033. His father was Giselbert, Count of Roucy and Reims.

Catholic Church titles

Preceded by

Arnulf Archbishop of Reims

1021–1033 Succeeded by

Guy of Roucy

This biography of a French peer or noble is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it. 

v • d • e

This article about a Catholic archbishop is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it. 

v • d • e


Ebles de Turenne, died Abt. 1030. He was the son of 32. Archembaud of Comdorn and 33. Sulpice de Turenne. He married 17. Beatrix of Normandy 988.

17. Beatrix of Normandy, born Aft. 985. She was the daughter of 34. Richard of Normandy I and 35. Gunnora Haraldsdatter of Denmark.

Child of Ebles de Turenne and Beatrix Normandy is:

8 i. William de Turenne, married Matilda ?.

Ebles was also called Graf von Roucy Ebalus I von Roucy German.

Ebles I, comte de Reims & de Roucy, married Beatrix de Hainaut, daughter of Régnier IV, comte de Hainaut and Adwige de France, before 1013. They were divorced after 1015.

See "My Lines"

( http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cousin/html/p338.htm#i7073 )

from Compiler: R. B. Stewart, Evans, GA

( http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cousin/html/index.htm )



Ebles I Comte de Rheims & Roucy 1 2

Born: 988 in Roucy, Aisne, Picardy, France

Died: 11 MAY 1033 in Reims, Marne, Champagne, France 3

Buried: Archbishop of Rheims 3

Father: Giselbert Comte de Roucy, & Rheims b: ABT 951 in Roucy, Aisne, Picardy, France

Mother: __________ de Macon b: ABT 970 in Macon, Saone-et-Loire, Bourgogne, France

Marriage 1 Beatrix of Hainault b: 992 in Hainault, France

Children:

Avise de Roucy b: ABT 1010 in Roucy, Aisne, Picardy, France

Aelis de Roucy b: ABT 1012 in Roucy, Aisne, Picardy, France

Alice (Alix\Adela) Countess de Roucy b: ABT 1014 in Roucy, Aisne, Picardy, France

Sources:

Title: Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Sheppard Jr., 1999

Page: 106-22

Title: The Plantagenet Ancestry, by William Henry Turton, 1968

Page: 199

Title: Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Sheppard Jr., 1999

Page: 144a-22



His parentage has been the subject of much discussion and dispute, with many conflicting interpretations. Ebles and his apparent siblings (Eudes/Odo "the Strong", Lietard de Marle, and Jutta Countess of Rethel) have long been posited as children of Gislebert de Roucy because of inheritance of the Count of Roucy title. However, recent scholarship by Jean-Noel Mathieu (20000; see Todd Farmerie's summary, below) problematizes this model and presents an alternative which places these four instead as children of Eudes of Poitou and an unnamed daughter of Aubri II de Macon and Ermentrude.

From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> Subject: Mathieu: Parentage of Ebles, Count of Roucy Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:28:09 -0700



Ebles I was the Count of Roucy from 1000 to 1033 and the Archbishop of Reims from 1021 to 1033.


[EUDES "le Fort/fortis" (-27 Aug after 1021). The necrology of the church of Reims records the death "VI Kal Sep" of "Odo Fortis frater domini Ebali archiepiscopi"

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORTHERN%20FRANCE.htm#AdaMarleMEngu...

view all 48

Ebles 1er de Roucy, comte de Roucy, comte de Reims's Timeline

973
973
Roucy, Aisne, Nord-Pas-de-Calais-Picardie, France
994
994
Age 21
[alternate birth date]
1013
1013
Roucy, Aisne, France
1022
1022
Roucy, Aisne, France
1023
1023
Roucy, Aisne, Hauts-de-France, France
1025
1025
Montdidier, Somme, Picardy, France