Joanna de Dinham

Joanna de Dinham

• Birth: 1248 in Buckland Dinham, Somerset, England
• ALT birth: abt 1265 Hartland, Bideford, Devon, England
• Death: after 22 Feb 1309 - Trelowith Manor, St Mewan, Cornwall, England
• ALT death: after 1321 - Grey Friars, Bodmin, Cornwall, England
• Burial: St Mawgan-in-Meneage Churchyard, Magwan, Cornwall, England, United Kingdom
• Geoffrey de Dinham (d Dec 1258). No mother identified.
• ALT father: Oliver de Dinham (d 1299) (otherwise her brother)

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Family

Joan married twice.

1. on 1273 in Carminowe, Cornwall, England to Sir Roger CARMINOWE Knight. Born 1240 and died August 1308, son of Roger de Carminowe (b abt 1210) & Sarah Harnacote.
2. after 1308 to John Arundel

They had the following children:

• M i Sir Oliver CARMINOWE Sheriff of Cornwall was born 1274 and died 23 Dec 1343. Oliver- b. 1278, m.1. Elizabeth Pomeroy sister of John Holland, Duke of Exeter 2. Isolda daughter of Reginald Ferrers 3. about 1335 Sibell ______, d. 1345
• M ii Sir John CARMINOWE Knight was born 1276 and died 2 Dec 1331. m. JANE (2) GLYNN, d. Nov. 1331
• M iii Richard CARMINOWE 1, 2 was born 1279 in Carminowe, Cornwall, England.
• M iv Minanus CARMINOWE 1, 2 was born 1282 in Carminowe, Cornwall, England. Married Thomasine. - d.s.p.
• F v Matilda CARMINOWE was born 1285. Matilda- m. 1. Sir William Ferrers, 2. Baro de Slane, 3. John Bonville, 4. Champernon de Berr Ferris
• F vi Joan CARMINOWE was born 1288 and died after 6 Nov 1348. Joanna- m. William de Wellesbro(14) (d. 1329) d. after 1332

Family note

She is shown as Johanna, no last name, but remarried to a John Arundell, in Parochial and and Family History of the Parishes of St. Teath and Temple in the County of Cornwall, page 70: < Archive.Org >

Origins

From https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Dinham-6 last modified 12 Feb 2018

< Evidence that Joan was a Dinham >

In 1309 Joan, widow of Roger Carminow, made an agreement about her dower with her eldest son Oliver. The document has a seal with the arms of Carminow and Dinham together: "The arms on the shield suggest that Joan was a Dinham by birth, which seems not to be otherwise known (though it is asserted, without authority, by J.P. Yeatman, The Early Genealogical History of the House of Arundell, p. 257b)." Quoted < here >, which goes on to say: "Oliver de Dinham held the lands of Roger de Carminow senior and the wardship of his heir in 1277, according to James Whetter's "Cornwall in the Thirteenth Century", page 151. Whetter goes on to name Joan, wife of Roger junior, as being a Dinham."

“It appears that Oliver Dinham, [which Oliver?] guardian of the underage Roger Carminow and of Roger's inheritance, arranged Roger's marriage to his daughter [??] Joan, whose eldest son was named Oliver.”

Court Records

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Dinham-6

• Ped. fin. 14 Edw. II, (1320/1) No. 1, settles the land therein named as the marriage portion of Johanna, mother of Sir Oliver Carminowe, on Oliver and Elizabeth his wife and their heirs, in default remainder to John, Richard and Minanus brothers of Oliver, and in default then to William de Walesbro and Jane his wife, and in default to the right heirs of the said Oliver.
• Scope and Content (Saturday St Peter's Chair, 2 Edw [II]); at Merthin
• Agreement for assignment of dower
• Oliver de Carmynou = (1)
• Lady Joan who was wife of Roger de Carmynou, knight = (2)
• Agreement between (1) and (2) for assignment of dower to (2) from the manors of Carmynou, Wynienton, Trezeued, Merthin, Kenel, Eglosros, Trelewith, Dysard, Resker and Hornicote, and the advowsons of the churches of Wyteston, Eglosros, Sanctus Rumon Maior and Sanctus Rumon Minor in Tyrhard.
• (1) has assigned to (2) in name of dower the manors of Merthin and Wynienton, the whole land of Kenel, and £7 worth (librate) of land and rent in the manor of Eglosros, from the following tenements: of Trelong' £4 4s, vill of Trenustel 38s, tenement of John Boya in Penmene 10s, tenement of Alice de eadem 5s, tenement of John Batiz de Eglosros 2s, tenement of John Jacke de Eglosros 12d; for the advowsons of those churches he has assigned to her the advowson of the church of Eglosros with the advowson of the church of Eglosros [sic; read 'with appurtenances']. (2) shall hold all these of (1) during her life in name of dower.
• Seal [of (2)? Good, showing arms of Carminow (a bend, without the label of three) and of Dinham (five lozenges); 'Sig... Carminno'].
• Trezeued [= Tretheves, in Landewednack]
• Trelewith [= Treloweth, in St Mewan]
• Dysard [= Dizzard, St Gennys]
• Resker [= Rosecare, in St Gennys]
• Hornicate [= Hornacaott, in North Tamerton]
• Wyteston [= Whitstone]
• Eglosros [= Philleigh]
• Sanctus Rumon Minor in Tyrhard [= Ruan Minor]
• Carminno 1309 [seal]
• Note on date: the clause is 'Die Sabbati in festo Beati Petri in Cathedra, anno regni Regis Edwardi secundo'; but 22nd Feb was not a Saturday in 1274, whereas it was so in 1309, so Edward II must be intended though not stated. In any case, Roger de Carminow died in 1308 (the writ for his Ipm. is dated 20th Dec 1308, and the inquisition 16th Jan 1309; [George] Oliver, [Monasticon Dioecesis Exoniensis] his son was then aged over 30). Joan de Carminow was still alive in 1321, Feet of Fines 467; W. Worcs saw her obit in Greyfriars, Bodmin, dated 1299 x 1329. The arms on the shield suggest that Joan was a Dinham by birth, which seems not to be otherwise known (though it is asserted, without authority, by J.P. Yeatman, The Early Genealogical History of the House of Arundell, p. 257b)."

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Extracted from W.C. Wade, Extinct Cornish Families, Part II (1891) < link >

The tomb at Mawgan-in-Menage is that of Sir Roger Carminow, the most distinguished member of his family. He was the grandson of Robert Carminow, of whom the first regular record is traceable in Col. Vivian and Dr. Drake's Cornish pedigrees. The surname of his wife, whose figure lies beside his, is lost; but her Christian name was Joanna, which seemed afterwards to have become a favourite one in this family.

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(No caption)

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/91296452/roger-carminowe

Extracted from Sir Roger de Carminow, "Crusader"

In the Lady chapel are the effigies of Sir Roger De Carminow (A descendant of King Arthur) and his widow Lady Johanna. At the beginning of the reign of James I the effigies were removed from the thirteenth century Carminow Chapel. The life size freestone is in the wall recess under the window and shows the dress and equipment of a knight of the period. The effigy is badly worn and defaced, and the illustration is partly a reconstruction based on similar monuments elsewhere. His crossed legs reveal faith in the resurrection, and the fact he was a crusader, he was with Edward I in the last crusade of the Palestinian holy war, and in the 1296 Scottish war. he died in 1308. His Knights sword and shield display the bend of the Carminow arms. A small triangular shield with a plain "bend", or diagonal band.

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References

• Parochial and and Family History of the Parishes of St. Teath and Temple in the County of Cornwall, “Pedigrees of the Families of Carminow, Hornicote, Bloyou, and Tinten.” Page 70: < Archive.Org >
• The Visitations of Cornwall: Comprising the Heralds' Visitations of 1530, 1573 & 1620, p. 72 < GoogleBooks > “ Roger de Carmynowe married Joanna, [Ped.fin.14, Edw. II, No. 1] Obit. Grey Friars', Bodmin, between 1299 and 1329, dominæ de Kaermynaw. William of Worcester.
• Journal of the Royal Institution of Cornwall, by Royal Institution of Cornwall. (1864). “Early Pedigree of Carminow, of Carminow (corrected)”. Page 149. < Archive.Org > (e) Oliver and his three brothers are named in the Deed of 1285. Oliver and John are also - named as ' Milites et Homines ad arma,' A.D. 1324. — Carew, 138. From this Sir John also the Booonnoc branch at the family descended.
• Hal Bradley - “Selected Families and Individuals.” < link > (“Joan de Dinham, b 1248, daughter of Sir Geoffrey de DINHAM Knight” … ) cites
  • 1. MacLean, John, The Parochial and Family History of the Deanery of Trigg Minor, in the County of Cornwall (London: Nichols & Son, 1873-1879.), 3:158, Family History Library, 942.37 K2ma.
  • 2. Vivían, John Lambrick, The Visitations of Cornwall: Comprising the Heralds' Visitations of 1530, 1573 & 1620 (Exeter: Pollard, 1887.), p. 72, Los Angeles Public Library, Gen 942.37 V858.
  • 3. The National Archives, AR/35/1 - 2
• Medievalist Ronny Bodine at soc.genealogy.medieval has her a generation later, as daughter of Geoffrey’s son Oliver (d 26 Feb 1299) and sister of Josce/Joyce de Dinham (died 30 Mar 1301). https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/5_L4n1kMODc/m/.... “ From the foregoing and the apparent chronology provided therein, and by Ronny Bodine in prior SGM posts [2], it would appear most likely that Joan, wife of Roger de Carminow and mother of (A) Oliver de Carminow and (B) Joan de Carminow, wife of William de Whalesborough, was a sibling of Sir Josce de Dinham (fl. ca. 1273-1300) and a daughter of Sir Oliver de Dinham of Hartland, Nutwell and Ilsington, Devon, Buckland Denham, Somerset and Cardinham, Cornwall (d. 26 Feb 1298/9). This would add a bit to the ancestry of the Carminow and Whalesborough families.
• http://powys.org/pl_tree/ps21/ps21_394.html “Joan de Carminow was still alive in 1321, Feet of Fines 467; W.Worcs saw her obit in Greyfriars, Bodmin, dated 1299 x 1329. The arms on the shield suggest that Joan was a Dinham by birth, which seems not to be otherwise known (though it is asserted, without authority, by J.P. Yeatman, The Early Genealogical History of the House of Arundell, p. 257b)."[1]
  • [1] PRO, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice [AR/17 - AR/50], AR/35/1] Note: the notation calling Oliver de Carminow "George Oliver, Monasticon Dioecesis Exoniensis" [bracketed above] is a recurrent transcription error in the Arundell files on the PRO.
  • J.P. Yeatman, The Early Genealogical History of the House of Arundel (1882) < FamilySearch book link>, p. 257b. < link >; p. 264 “The Dinham Family.” < link >
    • John Pym Yeatman (1830–1910) was a barrister and influential proponent of British Israelism. He has been described as "outspoken, quarrelsome, no respecter of rank and reputation and cursed with a self-destructive streak".[1]
    • WRIGHT, C. J. “THE MAN WHO WROTE ON THE MANUSCRIPTS IN THE BRITISH MUSEUM.” The British Library Journal, vol. 12, no. 1, 1986, pp. 76–85. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/42554234. Accessed 14 Nov. 2022. Yeatman, a barrister, is mentioned on page 78.
• http://powys.org/pl_tree/ps21/ps21_393.html Notes for Sir Roger de Carminowe: “IPM Chan. 2 Edw II, No 72.”
• http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=rwfurtaw&...
• https://www.our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1617...
• https://www.our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p482.... cites
  • [S1401] Unknown author, The Complete Peerage, by Cokayne, Vol. IV, p. 369, notes; Wallop Family, p. 275.
  • [S16] Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd Edition, Vol. I, p. 535-536.
  • [S4] Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. II, p. 320
• https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/91296651/joanna-carminowe
• https://www.werelate.org/wiki/Person:Joanna_Dinham_(1)
• https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Dinham-6 cites
• Gen-Medieval on rootsweb - 30 April 2004 posting of Mary Harry (dunsland. yahoo.com) re: Roger de Carminow and his wife Joan (de Dinham); 18 April 2004 posting John P. Ravilious (therav3 .com) re: Roger de Carminow and his wife Joan (de Dinham) (ref: PRO, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice, [AR/17 - AR/50], AR/35/1]. Note: the notation calling Oliver de Carminow "George Oliver, Monasticon Dioecesis Exoniensis" [bracketed above] is a recurrent transcription error in the Arundell files on the PRO.)
• https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00561596&tree=LEO (No parents listed)
• http://www.cybergata.com/roots/21666.htm (Lists as daughter of Oliver de Dinham, lord of Hertland by unknown 1st wife)
• https://www.stirnet.com/genie/data/british/cc4aq/carminowe1.php (No parents listed)
• “Roger de Carminow and his wife Joan (de Dinham)” SGM, John P. Ravilious et al, Apr 19, 2004. https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/5_L4n1kMODc/m/...
• “Carminowe” < link >
• Whetter James. Cornwall in the 13th Century : A Study in Social and Economic History. Lyfrow Trelyspen 1998. Page 151. Oliver de Dinham held the lands of Roger de Carminow senior and the wardship of his heir in 1277. Joan, wife of Roger junior, was a Dinham.
• "The note-book of Tristram Risdon, 1608-1628" beginning at page 75 (translated and published, 1897)