Doris 'Sara' of Judea - Doris' Herod the Great's 1st Wife: Sources for the aka 'Sara' please?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Thursday, March 29, 2012

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3/29/2012 at 7:49 AM

Looking for sources to validate Doris's name as aka 'Sara' please?

It's not that it's unlikely - given the practice at the time of having both a Hebrew and a Greek / Roman name; just that I can't the source used.

3/29/2012 at 8:26 AM

http://www.biblesearchers.com/yahshua/davidian/dynasty3.shtml#Linea...

The Lineage of Sara, called Doris of Jerusalem, the Wife of King Herod
 
Jesus Bar-Panthera married Bianca, and was executed in 63 BCE. They became the parents of;  à
Sarah 37 (aka Doris of Jerusalem) , who married King Herod the Great an Idumean à at this time the Royal

Davidian lineage became Extinct because Doris of Jerusalem married outside of her family house and tribe; the House of David out of the Tribe of Judah.
 
Yet, this marriage was critical to King Herod in order to establish that he had married into the revered House of David.  It appeared that Herod had a strategy in the women that he married, and it was not concerned with the laws of Torah. 

As genealogist David Hughes explained:
 
David Hughes – “Herod had a difference of opinion about the laws of succession.

His first wife was a Davidide and his 2nd wife was a Maccabee, so he appears that he attempted to graft his pedigree into the family-tree of Israel's ancient kings & queens; which undoubtedly was this reason that Herod had his court scribe invent for him a descendant (list) from the Davidide Dynasty so as to qualify his offspring for the succession.

3/29/2012 at 8:42 AM

Malka Mysels! You delight! I'm adding that now.

Her connection to Jesus bar Panthera (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshu) is fascinating too.

I really enjoy this guy's website, but wonder how 'hardy' his sources are? Following up his footnotes seems to lead to other contemporary websites.

I think I'm going to do some sleuthing here to see if there are original source docs to be found behind this too - on the 'where there's smoke there's fire' premise.

3/29/2012 at 9:04 AM

Sharon Doubell I am not sure exactly in which area Private User specializes, but his genealogy research blog is absolutely fascinating too. ie. http://miriamhakedosha.blogspot.com/

3/29/2012 at 12:00 PM

Wow, now that's a wide-roaming set of interests on his blog. Maybe we can get him to take a look?

3/29/2012 at 3:02 PM

Be careful of anything by David Hughes. He's a compiler of other people's information. I've never seen anything to indicate that he does original research.

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/et_deo/

Much of his information is sound, but at the intersection of cultures he seems to go off the deep end. For example, his Five Lines of Descent from Israel to Britain:

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/et_deo/israel2britain.wps.htm

Some are thought-provoking. For example, his Descent of Emperors of India to Kings of Britain:

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/et_deo/india2britain.wps.htm

And others, I've never seen anywhere else, even in the most outlandish sources. For example, his claim that the Ferreolii descend from Marcellinus, a brother of the Emperor Theodosius:

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/et_deo/empire2britain.wps.htm

3/30/2012 at 1:56 AM

Justin, I think this is wisely said. Until we can locate his source for the name Sarah (and I've been trying - not even the Jewish Women's Archives has it http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/herodian-women) , I'm moving it to the aka field.

Anyone who does find the source should yell, because it is highly likely she had a Hebrew name too.

3/30/2012 at 2:18 AM

Sorry, typos again:
Perhaps the person who entered her birth place as Idumaea has more information? (Assuming this is not just an extrapolation from Herod's family's origins.)

Would "Jesus Bar-Panthera' have been born in Idumaea??

3/30/2012 at 5:29 AM

Interesting trees and charts for the period:

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=AHN&db=rohls...

http://books.google.com/books?id=CiHUFBexze0C&pg=PA58&lpg=P...

See bottom page 58, 59

9) Jesus Panthera the father of Doris who married Herod the Great is also Jeshua lll who married Bianca aka Esmerelda and had Saint Jo Anne.

10) Jeshua who was known as Joidiah and fathered Saint Anne who was the mother of the virgin Mary. there is a tradition he was the son of Antigonus, and another tradition the son of Phabet.

*Scroll through and see many genealogical charts of the period.

*http://briandstarr.com/

3/30/2012 at 10:02 PM

Be very cautious about any source that deals with Jesus ben Panthera. From a very early period Jesus of Nazareth was alleged to have been the son of a Roman soldier, Panthera. The Talmud seems to preserve this tradition, although the text is not clear (Shabbat 104b, Sanhedrin 67a). The Greek philosopher Celsus (c 178) is the first clear statement (as preserved in Origen, Contra Celsus). Epiphanius of Salamis in the 4th century was still arguing that Jesus was not the son of Julius Panthera. Later, some Christian writers made Panthera an ancestor of St. Anna, and claimed that the references to Jesus ben Panthera were libels based on the name of his great grandfather.

There is an extraordinary scholarly literature on this subject, as you might imagine. Opinion is currently mixed about whether Jesus of Nazareth and Jesus ben Panthera were the same person, or whether there might have been a different man named Jesus ben Panthera. Two of the best analyses of the question (in my opinion) are Morton Smith's Jesus the Magician, and Jane Schaberg's The Illegitimacy of Jesus.

An interesting side note - in 1859 a tombstone was found in Germany that has the inscription "Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera from Sidon, aged 62 years served 40 years, former standard bearer (?) of the first cohort of archers lies here." (CIL 13:7514). Marcello Craveri suggested that this is the Panthera who was Jesus' real father (La vita di Gesu).

4/1/2012 at 12:19 PM

Justin Swanström,
so you're saying it wasn't Nortius Maximus?? Oh wait, that was Brian.

4/1/2012 at 12:58 PM

Shmuel, you should know me by now. I'm clueless about anything that happened after 1415. I had to google Nortius Maximus, then I had to get my partner to explain it, then I had to ask my sister if I've seen the movie. (I have, or so she says.)

This pop culture stuff is more complicated than any medieval manuscript.

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