Catharina Mare - Is this Ignace's sister or his daughter?

cf http://www.geni.com/discussions/110728?msg=814711

I saw that de la Mare Salgas link too, & sent the name to Sharon, on Facebook, as I wasn't able to access Geni at the time...certainly thought it worth looking into...And Alistair makes a very good pont regarding the name Ignace/Ignatius!

Is it not possible that Ignatius was not part of a Huguenot community but an individual recently converted to Calvinism, or perhaps he was a desperate immigrant (for other reasons) who managed to find passage with the Huguenots?

Why the only the only ex waldesian to reach the cape can possibly be answered after reading the following:
www.pbministries.org/History/J.%20A.%20Wylie/waldenses_11.htm

They paid a terrible price for their religion.

Consider also the following
www.twoagespilgrims.com/doctrine/?p=744

Wow! We're covering so much ground here - but need people to summarize our 'facts' and 'debates' for us.

I think Donovan might have a point, as I also have Jewish ancestors who arrived in S.A. 250-300 years ago, & changed their names, & their religion.

Personally, I hope someone can come to a conclusion of sorts, as I'm more confused than ever!...though I have enjoyed the discussion!

Incidentally, I found on Family Search, records, that Ignace had also been married to a Susanna Faveur, & that they were the parents of my ancestor Anna Elizabeth Mare..This is the first time I have seen this name (Susanna Faveur) before..

Susanna Faveur is the same as Susanna van Vuuren. If you look at the baptism entries of their children, you will notice the different spellings of her surname.

This is the baptism entry for Anna Elisabeth, b3:

'Anna Elisabeth, de Vader Ignatiùs Marrè, de Moeder Sùsanna Faveùr, getùijgen Jan Bùijs, met Sara Jacobs: 4 Janrij 1711.'

I've attached the source to her profile.

My mother's autosomal DNA matches on the level of estimated 4th cousin to a Waldensian family from France (Provence or Savoie?) and Italy (Piedmont). The test was done through family tree dna and after inquiry an expert on the test advised that the common ancestor would be visible at 64. My mother has Maria Maree as her great-grandmother show up twice in her 64 line. Could there be a connection?

We are in the process of getting this match uploaded onto Gedmatch so that we can compare this Waldensian family to the other South Africans that have undergone autosomal DNA testing. I laugh there are other South Africans that match this Waldensian family and that these South Africans also have Maree at 64! Will keep you posted on any progress that is made.

So fascinating Private User - Do keep us posted. Perhaps it's time we all have this done too.

Autosomal DNA testing is the most comprehensive ancestral test available. It tests and codifies approx one million SNP's (ancestral mutations or markers) across 22 of the total 23 chromosomes. The results are then compared to a growing database of people that have and are busy being tested. Genetic genealogy is cutting edge!

and expensive?

Fwding Advert from First Fifty Years Project http://www.facebook.com/FirstFiftyYearsProject/posts/553553074661441
"All this is Delia. I am wondering how many of you have had DNA tests - I will be launching a DNA section on the project website in the near future. Obviously the focus will be on ancestors who were at the Cape during the first fifty years or so. I am wondering if any of you who have Cape based ancestors from this group who would be prepared to participate (anonymously if preferred) by providing your own mtDNA and Y-DNA results and documented matrilineal / patrilineal ancestry? Confidentiality will be respected. If you are interested, please write privately to me at van.de.caep(at)gmail.com. Thanks for taking time to consider this proposal."

Sharon, the cost of the autosomal DNA test known as Family Finder at family tree DNA is 289$. This cost is decreased to 189$ during promotions (i.e. Summer Sales)

South African DNA projects at FTDNA
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/SouthAfrican-mtDNA
http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=South_African-Ca...

Thanks Alexander. we're bust talking about it on Geni SA FB site too.

I've had a message from Jansi Syfert asking us to move on this:

Hi Sharon
I've had a look at the discussion on this question and also the other discussions around Ignace Mare.

It appears that no-one had any objection to this Catherina being, in fact, Francina, b 1718.

Please unlock the profile for me to update her? I'll also upload the source documents.

And the other Catharina, Catharina the elder should be merged with the eldest daughter of Ignace - that also appeared to be acceptable to all.

And in this case a discussion about alternative data after merges is a definite must!
Jansi Syfert
Today at 7:16 AM

Alexander Armenis and June Barnes and Judith Susanna Hendrika 5 Marais b2c1d6e5f2g7h7i12j2 can you weigh in here?

Unless there are objections, I suggest we go forward with this tomorrow morning.

Please see this discussion too: http://www.geni.com/discussions/110788?msg=832866

I'm in agreement as things stand. If new info arises then we can review the decision but for now I say we should go ahead.

Okay, I've sent two emails today to try and get clarification.

The first to the Huguenot Passenger List site http://sa-passenger-list.za.net/huguenotsettlers.php

“Hi there

I wonder if I can ask for your help confirming the source for this Maria Mare, that you have on your Huguenot Passenger List: http://sa-passenger-list.za.net/huguenotsettlers.php

Maré (Maree); Maria; Calabria in Italy or Cambresis in Germany; c.1706; m Johannes van Vuuren; 5 sons, 3 daughter

We’re having a discussion about her on Geni.com (http://www.geni.com/discussions/110795?page=2) at the moment, and this would be a very interesting ‘curved ball’ that might help us out of a quandary because we have her as Catherina, but cannot decide if she is Ignace Mare (also on the passenger list)’s daughter or sister.

Anything you have will help.

Warm regards
Sharon

And the 2nd to the First Fifty Years Project:

Hi Delia at The First Fifty Years Project

We’re wrangling over a problem to do with our Ignace Mare and Catherina Mare profiles on geni.com (http://www.geni.com/discussions/110795?page=3) and one of our stumbling blocks is around this entry on your fantastic First Fifty Years project:

"[S325] Baptism Register, Palmkronieke I Baptisms, Lorna: 7.2.1706 trou "Ignatius Maree van Calabria wedr: met Susanna van Veuren van Cabo jongd:" Sy was d/v Gerrit Jansz van Vuuren en Susanna Jacobs. Ignatius het c1705 na die Kaap gekom met sy kinders Catharina en Ignatius uit sy vorige huwelik. 19.5.1707 vra Ignatius Marre van dondregt (sic) verlof om na Drakenstein te verhuis. Sy land van herkoms is nog omstrede. Langefontein, Kuilsrivier het aan hom behoort. Hy koop St Omar, Dal Josephat in 1724 van Armand Veron."
http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g5/p5206.htm.

Our problem is that we cannot find the primary sources to confirm that Ignace came in 1705 with two children – Catherina and Ignatius.

Can you put us out of our misery?

Do "Lorna Newcomb and Ockert Malan compilers. Annale van Nederduits Gereformeerde Moedergemeente Stellenbosch No 1.. CD-ROM. Stellenbosch Die Genootskap vir die Kerkversameling, 2004"
have primary sources that confirms these two children?

(Sources that contradict, for example:
- Pieter Coertzen’s 'The Huguenots of 1688-1988, Tafelberg Publishers 1988' – which has Catherine as Ignace’s sister.)
-And the fact that we (and you "[S408] Baptism Register, Drakenstein I Baptisms") also have Ignatius’ birthdate as 1729, rather than before 1705. Although ours is a birthdate: 18 July 1729 in Drakenstein, and yours a Baptism:14 Aug 1729.

Please help

Warm regards
Sharon

"And the fact that we (and you "[S408] Baptism Register, Drakenstein I Baptisms") also have Ignatius’ birthdate as 1729, rather than before 1705. Although ours is a birthdate: 18 July 1729 in Drakenstein, and yours a Baptism:14 Aug 1729."

This obviously refers to Ignace's son, Ignatius.

Yes exactly. That's the point here too: http://www.geni.com/discussions/115232?msg=833163

The Huguenot passenger list site email bounced back, so I'm thinking it is pretty safe to discount.

This is Delia Robertson - of the First Fifty Years Site's reply:
Morning Sharon,

The notes added by Lorna on Palmkronieke do not list sources.

However, Ignace seems clearly to have had two sons named Ignatius, one from his first union - the second born at the Cape in 1729. The first appears next to him in the 1713 muster, and must have been an adult [i.e. about 22 years old] to have been named separately viz:

1713 Muster:
Ignatius Marai [Mare] de Jonge
Ignatius Marai [Mare]

I suspect Ignatius de Jonge died before 1729, so that his younger brother was then named for his father - younger siblings were often given the name of a deceased older sibling.

Unfortunately the musters often do not list children, and when they do, the entry might simply be something like 1 s, 2 d - i.e. one son and two daughters.

I doubt Catharina could be Ignace's sister - if she were, she would clearly no longer been of child bearing age in the mid to late 1720s when she was having children. I don't yet have her marriage record which could shed further light.

Ignace was a widow when he married Susanna, viz:

7 Febr [1706]
Ignatius Marée van Calabria
wed:r met Susanna van Veuren
van Cabo jongd:

Unfortunately at present I do not have access to the muster rolls between 1702 [Ignace not listed] and 1712, but I think those might be a likely source for further clarification. Another place to check would be the Lidmaaten registers for the Cape and Stellenbosch NGK churches for the period.

Hope this helps.
Best
Delia

And my answer:

Thanks Delia for this long and careful reply. It helps a lot! I will post it to the discussion immediately.

1) We did not have the muster roll info. Fantastic stuff! (Perhaps we can find researchers to look for those muster rolls and to check the Lidmaaten registers for the Cape and Stellenbosch NGK churches. Will feed back to you if we do.)

That does seem to be corroborative evidence for another son; except for the strange 'de Jonge' bit. What is that doing there, do you know? (Is this an 'adopted' son/ son in law? / or a son who took a wife's surname?) I noticed that you hadn't added him in either, so wondered if you might have had the same doubts.

Then I looked at the ship lists http://huguenots-france.org/france/refuge/afrique_sud/embarques.htm and found what I'd previously thought was just a duplicate record of Ignace. And lo and behold :-) one of the Ignaces has a farm called De Lange Fonteijn. Mystery solved.

2) Catherine could easily still be of child bearing age if she was his much younger sister or half sister.

We have two photos of Ignace Snr and Catherina, on Geni that make them look far less than the age difference between father and daughter. (And we also wondered why there would be no portrait of the other sibling, if Catherine is a daughter.)However, it must be said that, although these photos are easily found on the net as being of these two, we still can't find good source validation - so many are dubious about them.

However, on balance of evidence, I think it is more likely that she is his daughter, as you say.

PS Please come and join / add stuff to Geni if you're ever interested. I often advertise your phenomenal project's FB page on our Geni South Africa FB page, but you are very welcome to do so as well.

Warm regards
Sharon

Please welcome our newest Geni Mare profile - Ignatius Maré - Much labour has gone into his birth. Thank you all. Please request we add you as a manager if you have an interest.

From Delia again (in which she politely explains that 'the younger' is 'de Jonge' - and I go and re-look at the miraculous farm name to realise that it was deLange Fonteijn, not deJonge Fonteijn. (Oops - More haste less speed :-)

Hello again Sharon,

de Jonge in these entries almost always refers to a younger individual in the same family, usually a son - sometimes the older person would be indentified as de oude. I feel pretty sure he must have been a son.

According to this
(http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SOUTH-AFRICA/2001-08/...),
Ignatius de jonge was still around in in 1719 - which would explain why Ignace waited until he had a fourth son with Susanna to give him his own name. I think we might find that Ignatius de jonge died between the baptism of Paulus in 1724 and the baptism of Ignatius in 1729.

The portraits, if indeed this Mare family, may in fact be the brother and sister rather than father and daughter. But in any case, seem to me to be quite stylised. I think they may originate with Paul Maré - are you guys in touch with him? His email used to be Paul.Mare@telkomsa.net

I agree with Sharon. die jonge almost always in 99.999% refer to son of an older person.

Actually, you're agreeing with Delia of the FFYP. Sharon was the one who looked too quickly and thought it was the name of a farm :-) :-) (Red face!)