Ignace Maré, SV/PROG - Birthplace Calabria?

From Amanda Petronella Jansen we had the following tantalising info on 29/5/2013:http://www.geni.com/discussions/110728?by_or_about=6000000005776584613

=ek het laas jaar in Amsterdam (Archives) die volgende inligting gekry. Paulus (Paul) Maré / De Mare De Salgas gebore 1661 in Frankryk, Ardennes (is 'n provinsie ) dorp Monthermé. Hy was getroud met Germaine Mathieu gebore 1665 in Frankryk. Ignace is gebore in 1684 ook in die selfde dorp as sy vader. Ek gaan middel van Junie na Monthermé om te kyk of ek iets meer kan uitvind.=

.. but she never came back to Geni :-(

Not that it's much - but there are still Mare's in Montherme in 1883 - when there was a Mare as the conseillers généraux successifs http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton_de_Montherm%C3%A9

And then Private User, the originator of the pictures and the webpage we were all referencing, commented 7/6/2013 http://www.geni.com/discussions/110728?by_or_about=60000000057...:

=So just my two pennies, I am not sure that Paul is the father of Ignace yet, Amanda - did you find confirmation in Montherme? The original rumour that his father was called came from my family line where all the oldest sons were called Paul, no documentary proof. The 3 portraits, allegedly Paul, Ignace and Catherine also from this family line. they may be real, they may be random. They used to say that it was a portrait of Ignace, his sister and his father. I am leaning towards Catherine being a sister not a daughter... But would love to confirm form primary sources.=

And promptly disappeared from Geni too :-(

Paul Mare de Salgras was the father of Ignace Mare. He was of Spanish origin, like so many that arrived in Italy at the time of the ''Kingdom of the Two Sicilies'', who eventuall married Germaine Mathieu, who was a descendent of the Waldensians who fled the valleys of Piedmont, Italy in the 14th Century, and settled in Calabria, founding the town of ''Guardia Piemontesi'', where they still are to-day living as Italian Protestants''. That is why also on the Mare side the DNA test shows Italy. DNA does not lie either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardia_Piemontese

Calabria all Roman Catholic? You are in for a surprise on this one!

Very interesting indeed. Thank you all.
Judi

By the way ''Ignace'' is Italian, and ''Ignatius'' is Latin.

Cav. Andre Eugene Martinaglia, b8c1 - that's fantastic info, but what are your sources?

We've gone with Ignatius at the moment because that's what he wrote when he got here.

''Die Groot Afrikaanse Familie - naamboek'' by Cor Pama''; ' ''The History of the Italians in South Africa'' by Gabrielle Sani. I was awarded a ''Cavaliere'' Knighthood for Literature and Research regarding the Italians , including the Waldensians in South Africa and Worldwide. ''See ''Valdesi nel Mondo'' on fb Group.

You're a great asset to our research on this Cav. Andre Eugene Martinaglia, b8c1.
(As an aside - have you thought of starting a project on Geni for the Italian South africans' history and/or the Waldensians - if there aren't any. If you need help with technical details setting it up - we'd be glad to assist.)

On Paul Mare: Unfortunately we already know Pama didn't have the primary documents. Perhaps Sani does? Can you check that for us?
So far we have apparently unsourced birth/baptismal places for Paul in Motherme, Ardennes, France and Germaine in Calais.

We have a primary Source (his marriage certificate) that says Ignatius was born in Calabria - but, for some reason, SA genealogists questioned the correctness of this.

We have primary sources for his daughter (sister?) http://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000006913289205#600000000... children's baptisms:1716-1737.
If we assume a childbearing range for her between 18yrs-45yrs, then her birthdate is likely between 1692 and 1698. Unfortunately that makes Ignatius' birthdate or his paternity unlikely as the oldest he could have been then is 14yrs old. :-(

'' I suggest you contact the Regional Calabria ''National State Archives of Italy'' who are online. I have my plate full at the moment - just completed a worldwide Malan family project. Like in this case to, one has to understand the area from where they come, and how people move around. Malans are all from Waldensian descent, even if they come from the French side of the Alps. Also including the Jourdan (Jordaan) family, Joubert, Faure; Malherbe(Malerbe, original spelling) Jacobs, Roux, Durant (Du Rand) and some others. See ''Valdesi nel Mondo'' (Waldensians of the world) fb Group. Here you will see that Louisa Malan came from Torre Pellice, which is the Italian side of the Alps. They speak French Patoit there, as well as Italian. Some have Italian First names and French Surnames and Visa Versa. Their religion to-day is still Protestant and have teamed up with the United Methodists of Northern Italy. The Huguenots were good friends of the Waldensians, and no doubt inter-marriage must have also taken place. They often visited each other having to cross the Cottian Alps to reach each other, and there was no border control there either. Another Francophone area of Piedmont is Aosta which was called in Roman Times as ''Augustus Pretoria'' The huge archway the ''Porta Pretoria'' is still to be seen there. From the to the Swiss border most people are French speaking , although part of Italy. The Italian Piedmontese dialect is very close to the Waldensian French Patoit. A lot of the Joudan family were born in Torre Pellice and especially in Turin, 45 kilometres from Torre Pellice one will find many Jouberts living there.

In 1688 when they had all to flee for like so many times before going back to the13th Century, 2,000 Waldensians were exiled to Vaud in Switzerland, where under Henri Arnaud, they regrouped and fought back, taking back their lands in the Waldensian Valleys piece by piece , defeating the French troops although outnumbered, and were all back by 1689 . The ''Glorious Reurn'' is celebrated worldwide each year, wherever they are to be found. In 1848 they also gained their religious freedom The Huguenots had gained that already in 1802. Still to-day in Vaud,Switzerland you will find Malans and other families still living who did not return to Piedmont. On arrival at the Cape, the Chief Arcivist Colin Graham Botha (Union of South Africa) wrote in his book regarding these refugees on page 2 (''The French Refugees at the Cape'' Struik, Cape Town) '' .......De uytgeweecken Piedmontoisen off dalluyden onse geloofs verwanten'' ( ........''The Piedmontese refugees from the valleys of our same religion'') The Bruwer family of ''The Wagoners Valley'' outside Wellington, are very aware of the Piedmontese refugees, who settled there together with the French Huguenots, who like those of Stellenbosch and Franschhoek became farmers. I am quite sure that is why like in the USA to where they also fled, that the authorities could not understand French, hence the surname changes, and these people especially the Waldensians could not read or write. Malan is definetly not a French surname, and I have even discovered Malanot and Malan families who look Oriental in Borneo and the Phillipines, who know their families were not from there, but the don't know from where they came originally. DNA will have to go to work there, to find out exactly.

In the late 1880's after the Waldensian Missionary Society restablished itself and with the help of Rinaldo Malan opened two missionary stations in Cairo and Alexandria in Egypt , and thereafter in Ethiopia, Togo and Gabon, we find Jaques Weitzecker and his wife Louisa Malan, both natives of Torre Pellice arriving at the Cape, meeting Dr. Andrew Murray, and going onto Kimberely visiting the Italian diamond mine workers there. Thereafter supporting the French Missionaries in Lesotho, and helping to establish a trade agreement between the Boer Republic of the Orange Free State and Italy. Later joining up with the Waldensian Missionaries and brothers Jules Adolphe and Luigi Jalla, who were operating on both sides of the Zambesi River, especially in Barotseland, Zambia. Jules made friendly contact with the native king Lewanika, and was instrumental in helping placing Northern Rhodesia under British protection, which became a colony, receiving a ''Knighthood Order from King George V, which was very seldom awarded to a foreigner.Most of these artefacts they collected, are to be seen to-day at the Waldensian Museum at Torre Pellice, which also has a Library containing 83,000 volumes of history books divided into two sections, ancient and modern, at the ''Cultural Centre for the Waldensians. The Waldensians only became literate after the ''Battle of Waterloo'', when Major-General Charles Beckwith arrived there after loosing a leg, caused by a canon ball that shattered his leg, and later was amputated. He became so interested in the Waldensians that for the next 35 years he devoted himself to educating them, building some 120 schools in the Waldensian Valleys. A street is named after him at Torre Pellice. He also married a Waldensian during this time. He was from Canada, and knowing French, he could communicate with them. He sponsored people like Professor Bartolomeo Malan, to go to Rome, so that he could beter his Italian . A Theological College was also accepted in Rome, and here to-day the Pastors are trained in the Presbyterian way in the running theWaldensian church.
In 1928 the half-sister of the Prime Minister to be, namely D.F. Malan (Essie Malan) visited Torre Pellice as guest of Louisa Malan and Professor Jalla. Louisa asked her ''How big is Cape Town now?'' ''Are the children of Dr. Andrew Murray still living?'' Essie was so surprised, not expecting to meet Louisa, that she just stood there with her mouth open. She was amazed! Then the ''Malan Family Association''was established (worldwide) and Dr. Hermanus Malan of Polokwane, traced most of the Malans in Western Europe, the United Kingdom, North and South America, and brought them together at Torre Pellice. The Hotel Gilly where the conference was held in the year 2000, was also owned by a Malan. This brought out a mass of interesting family history stories. Each representative from the country their forefathers had emigrated to, standing up and telling all in attendance all about it. To-day in South Africa alone there are over 7,000 Malan families, more than the USA or any other country, and all are directly related, and also to the Jordaan (Jourdan) family in this country. Hardly anyone here is not related to them in some way or other.

Thank you very much, Cav. Andre Eugene Martinaglia, b8c1
Sharon Doubell would it be possible to capture this input in a project on the Waldensians or something similar?

Wow. Very very interesting - Sounds like we need a Malan family Project on Geni. =To-day in South Africa alone there are over 7,000 Malan families, more than the USA or any other country, and all are directly related, and also to the Jordaan (Jourdan) family in this country. Hardly anyone here is not related to them in some way or other.= Jacques Malan, SV/PROG is my 8x gr grandpa.
We have them as Huguenots born 1660s, in Saint-Martin-de-la-Brasque, France, and coming to SA on the Berg China in 1688. I feel like I don't know enough (anything :-)) about the Waldensians to comment, though.

= and these people especially the Waldensians could not read or write= Well, Ignatius' (Ignace's) spelling of his own name in his signature certainly appears to bear that out.

='' I suggest you contact the Regional Calabria ''National State Archives of Italy'' who are online.= I found it here: http://www.archivi.beniculturali.it/ but as I don't speak Italian I can't search easily. Anyone?

Cross posted Johann Ahlers - Yes, I was trying to figure out whether it should be Malan or Wadensians. Want to help?

Maybe both so that interested parties from either end will see the info?
Definitely willing to assist, Sharon Doubell

The Malan family part of the Waldensians is a massive project. I suggest you guys join ''Valdesi nel Mondo'' fb Group, to be aware of what is going on. You will be dealing with families that went to Uruquat, Argentina, Brazil, The Netherlands, Switzerland, France, England, Australia, and the USA. I have these stories.Two Waldensian Museums in Germany have been located, a Waldensian Statue in Steyr, Tirol, Austria, Waldensian Communities in Naples and Sicily, and much, much more. You can write in English to the archives in Italy - no problem. Their Roman Catholic Church libraries can also help. They know at the archives where they are.

Some of the Mare family changed the surname to Maree in South Africa. Just that you know. The surname means ''Someone who lives next to the sea'' Well CALABRIA is next to the sea is it not? If the surname were French it would be ''De la Mar'' or Delamar.

What is very useful on ''Descendants of the French Huguenots'',fb Group is that I find a lot of info on ''Pinterest'' App 10,000,000. Photos of direct family and Family History Books which has helped people a lot. You will also find a lot on the Waldensians there, by inserting at the top open enquiry space ''Waldensians, Vaudois, Vaudioise, Waldenser, Valdese and Valdesi''. I can't work without ''Pinterest''. There is information there sometimes where you will not find anywhere else- Photos and info combined. You can also click on the photo, go through, see the same photo, and click on the reference below the photo. You casn also scroll down. You can connect your fb page to ''Pinterest '' as well. You can e-mail the photo. and ''Pin it''. You can create your own board as well.

Thank you, Cav. Andre Eugene Martinaglia, b8c1, for the helpful and interesting suggestions!

Only a pleasure Johann. Anything else let me know. Found a rare photo of the Jalla Waldensian Missionaries with French colleagues in Lesotho - once again, thanks to ''Pinterest''. ''Pinterest'' I forgot to say has often photos of gravestones as well.

Regarding Mare(Maree) His father was Paul Mare de Salgras, and mother Germaine Mathieu. De Salgras definetly Spanish, and Mathieu French. What is interesting is that during the 13th Century, Waldensians fled religious persecution in Piedmont, Italy, and settled in Calabria, Italy, founding the town ''Guardia Piemontese'', where they still live to-day. They were persecuted there as well of course. Germaine Mathieu's forefathers are believed to be Waldensians. De Salgras is definetly Spanish. Many Spaniards settled in Italy at the time of the ''Kingdom of the Two Sicilies'' like Villa families, a surname which is very common in Italy. Labia and Solinas are others, as wellCorjees and Garcia. The Garcia who arrived here in South Africa, according to family members, was from Italy. Corjees also arrived here from Italy.

Waldensian Missionaries serving the ''Paris Evangelical Missioin Society'' as from the late 1880's arrived in South Africa, and served in Lesotho, Zambia ,and Madagascar. Louis and his brother Jules Joseph Adolphe Jalla were well known for their work in Zambia. Giacomo (Jacques, James) Weitzecker and his wife Luisa Malan also well known in Southern Africa did wonderful work here. They were natives of Torre Pellice in Piedmont, Italy. Enter ''Studi Valdesi Africa'' on ''Google'' to find out more about them. Automatic translator to English available. Waldensian Museum at Torre Pellice mentions them here as well. Artefacts from Southern Africa are on display.

Post links please.

Reference ''http://www.studivaldesi.org/dizinario/evan_det.php?secolo=XlX&_.... You can also write to the ''Waldensian Culture Center, Torre Pellice at ''biblioteca@fondazionevaldese.org. Photos with information also available on ''Google'' of the Jalla Brothers in Zambia. Insert ''University of Southern California Digital Library''. Go through and insert Adolphe Jalla and Louis Jalla at the top of the open enquiry slot. Also Torre Pellice, in the Waldensian valleys. Do not worry about the first mentioned information being in Italian. There is a automatic translation into English.

This is the link - ''http://www.studivaldesi.org/dizinarioevan_det.php?secolo=XlX&ev.... Another two links ending with numbers 138 and 142.