Was Ignace born in Calabria italy?
Summary of Discussion so far from http://www.geni.com/discussions/110795?page=2
Sharon Doubell: 29/8/2012
Praia a Mare (known as Praja) is a place in Calabria, Italy http://wikitravel.org/en/Calabria; http://www.traveldudes.org/travel-tips/praja-mare-beaten-track-regi...
Mare translates from Italian as 'sea', and from French as 'pond'
*Pieter Coertzen: 'The Huguenots of 1688-1988, Tafelberg Publishers 1988' has birth place of Ignace and his SISTER Catherine as either Calabria in Italy or Cambresis in Germany, and points out also that there remains debate as to whether they were Huguenots.
*http://sa-passenger-list.za.net/huguenotsettlers.php cites a MARIA (not Catherine) Mare as coming with Ignace c 1706.
A typo?
*The French ship list http://huguenots-france.org/france/refuge/afrique_sud/embarques.htm cites CALABRIA (OU) CAMBRESIS for Ignace and Catherina.
Private User PRO 29/8/2012
It seems to me that the county of Cambresis (Cambrai) is where Ignace was from. The region is populated by Walloons, French-speaking Belgians and the like. Essentially French with strong Protestant tendencies.
Calabria makes zero sense here, it was a Roman Catholic and Eastern rite region, old-school Christianity, no relation.
The De Savoy family, Waldesians (Protestants), may have originated in the County of Savoie which included the Swiss city of Vaud where the Waldesians were founded.
@June Ardennes is located in the vicinity of Cambrai, Nord department in France. This hits the mark!
Private PRO 30/8/2012 at 5:55 AM
@Alexander. If the man was born in Cambrai, why would he tell the marriage official that he was from Calabria? See his marriage entry.
Who said he was a Protestant before he came to the Cape? He might have been Roman Catholic for all we know!
Private User PRO 30/8/2012
Hi Jansi, thank-you for showing an interest, the facts are as follows: After the settlement of the Cape in 1652, the practice of the Catholic religion was prohibited by the civil authorities. It was only following an ordnance by Commissioner General De Mist, dated 25 July 1804, that Catholic congregations were permitted to practice their faith in South Africa. http://www.catholic-ct.co.za/about/history.htm
His place of origin is uncertain and has been questioned based on his marriage entry in the Dutch Reformed Church records, Stellenbosch.
For more info see: Lorna Newcomb and Ockert Malan compilers. Annale van Nederduits Gereformeerde Moedergemeente Stellenbosch No 1.. CD-ROM. Stellenbosch Die Genootskap vir die Kerkversameling, 2004.
Private PRO 30/8/2012
Hi Alexander Just look at his marriage entry. It is attached to his profile.
I know that only the Dutch Reformed Church was allowed at the Cape.
What religion might he have practised before he came to the Cape?
Private User PRO 30/8/2012
@Jansi You could be right, Ignace may have come from a Roman Catholic home himself, growing up. The problem in stating that he was from Calabria in Italy is quite elementary really. Protestant thought was non-existent in Calabria, still is. Italian settlers did not arrive at the Cape until much later. No other settlers were from anywhere in Italy, not to mention Calabria, a poor region with no contact with the rest of the world during the 17th to 19th centuries.
The reality at the time was that the vast majority of settlers were Protestant, fleeing religious prosecution. French and Dutch settlers fall for the most part into this category. The German settlers were the exception in this regard. Italian settlers didn't arrive at the Cape until much later! The French settlers who were not clearly distinguishable as Huguenots tended to speak Flemish and were from Brabant, Nord and surrounds (Belgium). They could marry Dutch-speaking settlers as they were able to communicate with them. Italy makes no sense?
The marriage entry was not entered by him, obviously by the dominee or one of the church officials. Look closely, there is a question mark on the word Calabria and there are scribbles alongside the entry. The cross-correlation with other entries where Cambresis (cambrai) is mentioned makes this entry stand out as a mistake due to possible unfamiliarity by the clerk who entered the info into the registry.
Private PRO 30/8/2012
BUT the man told the marriage official that he was from Calabria!
And he came alone, in 1705, not with other Huguenots in 1688 - 1690.
Daan Botes C 1/9/2012 at 4:37 PM
1. http://sa-passenger-list.za.net/huguenotsettlers.php cites a MARIA (not Catherine) Mare as coming with Ignace c 1706.
Peter Dennis...Gone fishing! PRO 1/9/
Protestant thought not quite as non-existent in Calabria Italy as Alexander points out.Nor was it quite the religious or political backwater he makes it to be.
as example: Pope Pius V: When he was Grand Inquisitor, he sent Catholic troops to kill 2,000 Waldensian Protestants in Calabria in southern Italy.
Famous woodcut: Massacre of the protestants in Calabria www.loc.gov/pictures/item/95504263/
Private User PRO 2/9/2012
Peter, This massacre of Waldesians you mention occurred in 1560. The survivors of the massacre had to convert to Roman Catholicism. Marriages between two previously descended from Waldensians were strictly forbidden. Contrary to what you may think, the Waldesians were refugees and were severely persecuted in Calabria. This episode ended in 1561.
If what you suggest is that strictly speaking Protestant thought did make its way to Calabria, then granted, it did. However, the context is that Calabria was where Protestant thought was exterminated with force in 1561! These are the facts...
If you are suggesting that Ignace may have been descended from this Waldesian community that was exterminated or assimilated into the Calabrian Roman Catholic citizenry back in 1561, then alright. I can accept this as a real possibility, although it leaves a number of questions unanswered. Most importantly, how did he manage to be the only ex-Waldesian from Calabria to find passage to the Cape.
Private User 3/9/2012
If these massacres in Calabria ended in 1561, that doesn't tie in with Ignace, who was born circa 1686......So either the family Mare remained there, & Ignace left later down their line, for reasons of...who knows..Or he was a Catholic, but not particularly religious, & converted to Protestanism for pragmatic reasons when he emigrated...or he wasn't from Calabria after all!...He's a bit of a mystery character anyway....Some of us have been down this route with the du Plessis lines!....If only records had been kept in the same way that they seem to have been in America!
Private User C 3/9/
The Woodcut Peter mentioned at http://www.ancientfaces.com/research/photo/1211718/massacre-of-the-... - the tag at the URL is Protestants--Punishment & torture--Italy--Calabria--1500-1700.
Massacres--Italy--Calabria--1500-1700.
so not entirely outside the dates we are looking at.
There is a thesis available that some may want to look at - 260+ pages! http://sro.sussex.ac.uk/2340/1/Tarrant,_Neil_James.pdf
See also http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft958009jk;chu... - Inquisition and Society in the Kingdom of Valencia, 1478-1834 - heavy reading but interesting. Look at p 293 - I know this is Spain but ....
http://thebibleisnotholy.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/a-companion-to... page 25
Private User PRO 3/9/2012
I had a quick look at the French site geneanet and found the following. There appears to have been a family with the name de la Mare de Salgas also written Marre de Salgas.
de la MARE de SALGAS 1514 - 1514 Sauve Gard, Languedoc-Roussillon, France
de la MARE de la SALGAS 1515 - 1889 Saint-André-de-Valborgne Gard, Languedoc-Roussillon, France
MARE 1535 - 1535 Saint-André-de-Valborgne Gard, Languedoc-Roussillon, France
de la MARE de SALGUAS 1560 - 1560 Saint-André-de-Valborgne Gard, Languedoc-Roussillon, France
MARE 1570 - 1629 Sumène Gard, Languedoc-Roussillon, France
DE LA MARE DE SAL GUAS 1645 - 1645 Saint-André-de-Valborgne Gard, Languedoc-Roussillon, France
de LA MARE de SALZAS 1646 - 1646 Saint-André-de-Valborgne Gard, Languedoc-Roussillon, France
http://www.geneanet.org/search/?name=MAR%C9&country=FRA&......
Alistair Moncur Knox 3/9/2012
As to Ignace Mare's possible fath-'Ignace'/'Ignatius' doesn't seem to be a Protestant name.My wife is of 1/2 Irish-Catholic descent & asserts that St.Ignatius is a modern Catholic saint,not part of older tradition.At same time,Protestant zealot John Knox began his career as a Catholic priest! A Sabra(Israeli) I know spoke of a Brazilian Catholic he met on his travels,who observed his actual Jewish faith secretly in his cellar,his own family was unaware of this!
Sharon Doubell – C 3/9/2012
Such interesting stuff we're unearthing. St Ignatius wasn't an angle I'd thought of.
Yes, the de Salgas name is pointed to by Pama too -. Jansi has been looking at that too. I'll look for the discussion link.
Private User, Ⓒ C 4/9/2012 Is it not possible that Ignatius was not part of a Huguenot community but an individual recently converted to Calvinism, or perhaps he was a desperate immigrant (for other reasons) who managed to find passage with the Huguenots?
Peter Dennis...Gone fishing! PRO 4/9/2012
Why the only the only ex waldesian to reach the cape can possibly be answered after reading the following:
www.pbministries.org/History/J.%20A.%20Wylie/waldenses_11.htm
They paid a terrible price for their religion.
Consider also the following
www.twoagespilgrims.com/doctrine/?p=744
Private User PRO 9/11/2012
My mother's autosomal DNA matches on the level of estimated 4th cousin to a Waldensian family from France (Provence or Savoie?) and Italy (Piedmont). The test was done through family tree dna and after inquiry an expert on the test advised that the common ancestor would be visible at 64. My mother has Maria Maree as her great-grandmother show up twice in her 64 line. Could there be a connection?
We are in the process of getting this match uploaded onto Gedmatch so that we can compare this Waldensian family to the other South Africans that have undergone autosomal DNA testing. I laugh there are other South Africans that match this Waldensian family and that these South Africans also have Maree at 64! Will keep you posted on any progress that is made.