Turning V.I.P. profiles into projects

Then maybee the problem is visibility, because sadly I have not run across it when doing Medieval and Viking age. At least not in my corner of the world.
At least not that I have notized, sorry!

Just a note to clear up any misunderstanding, and endorse Justin's point about Jeannette's project of a profile. I, too, thought it was beautiful and the info was definitely worth having.

The question that needs to be answered is: "Why is this info not simply added to the profile itself?
What is the benefit to Geni of creating projects for info that can equally well be added to the profile? I'm thinking of what Alex Moes said earlier about "Making your profiles detailed and beautiful".

I LIKE projects;
I LIKE Dimitri's highly visual approach to their texts.
I'm happy for him to create Portals/Plazas for groups of profiles linked in ways that have not been serviced yet, and add to ones that already exist..

But I abhor redundancy, and do not think - with the hundreds of projects we have already- that Duplicate Projects benefit us, & they may actually hinder us in wading through them.
A thousand single profile Projects duplicating Profiles could quickly become a nightmare.

So the benefits for Geni need to be explained.

Dimitri Gazan - can I call you Jackson in future :-), Program functionality is only "just a tool" if you are the programmer.
My mentioning that hypertexting a project URL in a Discussion does not show up as the name of the project - isn't preaching the rules to you; it's pointing out a fact that only Geni can change. It is a fact that will affect Discussions from Portals that link together Projects not Profiles. I was asking you why you thought this would make Discussions easier.

I'm another person who's always preferred more aesthetically pleasing project overviews, so I have no objection to that. I think Private User was a pioneer of adding images and symbols to project pages and using them to good effect...I'd be curious to hear from him. Randy Stebbing, too, since he's been more involved with tracking the growth and transformation of projects over time than just about anyone. (For anyone unfamiliar, his work on identifying and cleaning up projects was one of the great unsung user contributions in Geni's history.)

Maybe a solution is to integrate the ideas people like Bjørn, Dimitri, Randy, and others have had and focus on improving the existing project approaches, as opposed to creating a new one? There must be some way we can take all these ideas and integrate them into the current system as a means of improvement instead of replacement.

Keep in mind that if we're asking users to invest in this plaza idea, it's yet another format/convention they have to learn on top of portals, subportals, coffee klatches, etc. Is that reasonable?

Good idea Ashley.

My oh my, am I so proud to be a member here on Geni at this moment!!! So excellent the way this discussion is going, is flowing, is becoming a nest where we can breed eggs together! YESSS!!!

Thank you all :)

Sharon, you and I might see some of this just a little differently so I think it might be a good idea for me to explain a little better what I'm thinking.

The reason I like Jeanette's project pages so much but I'm still not sold on the underlying idea is that her pages are clearly "fan" pages. They show the the person as the center of a fan cult, not a genealogy node. The info could go into the profile, sure. No doubt there. But the page lets me deal with, say, Audrey Hepburn, as a star rather than a genealogical node in my tree.

If someone did the same thing with, say, Dag Hammarskjöld (diplomat, economist), a man whose work I greatly admire, the result would be silly. At least I think so. He was a great man, but he's not someone who has millions of adoring fans. We don't see articles about him in People or National Enquirer ;)

At this point in my thinking, I'm inclined to the idea that Geni has room for these fan pages for pop culture superstars. But to make a project for every prominent person who ever lived? No, I think not. On that point I agree with everyone who has already pointed out that it would divide the audience, complicate discussions, and annoy the users.

Can I break a myth here about creating doubles, copies of projects or whatever you described them. I haven't seen them made by my hand, I have never been approached for that reason by anyone lol
so..

All I can say is that I am so not bothered with duplicating portals of portals of portals of portals, hahaha!! Why would I be motivated in doing so?

Just a bit of inside information about me, I just started to make projects, not so long ago. You can definitely call me a rookie next to Project Queen Jeannette!

But I have my first impressions on projects and how they work for me and how they don't. I have dared to involve myself into FB and other social media stuff, chats in games, you name it. So that's the fieldwork I have done.

Then there is my artistic background, my graphic designing background, my teaching skills, my skills with giving workshops...this all comes together for me all of a sudden and before I knew it, all these projects and Plaza's came jumping and screaming out my head like I was on fire LOL

In fact, I am still on fire, hahaha!!!

Justin Durand, If you say; divide the audience, then I assume there is a divide in interests here.

that would be a very significant state of fact, if it were to be true
So both need to be served here, I feel.

It's already been said, but I think it bears repeating for the sake of clarity --

If you start a discussion from a profile, you automatically pull in everyone who is managing or following that profile. Same thing if you link to a profile in a discussion.

If you start a discussion from a project, you automatically pull in everyone who is collaborating on or following that project, plus all the people who manage or follow all of the profiles in the project. You don't get this is you just link to a project in a discussion.

So, deciding where to start a discussion has some nuances that will determine the initial audience.

If there is a simple, one-to-one correspondence of one profile in a project, there is very little difference except for any differences between who is Following which. (Those are never likely to be exactly the same.)

It will be the cases where there is only one profile in a project that will split the audience. If I want to reach the largest audience, I'd have to check for a project and start the discussion there in order to get the users who are following the project but not following the profile.

But maybe the project has two profiles for some reason (say it's Bill and Hillary Clinton or Queen Elizabeth and Prince Phillip), and I don't want to spam the Followers of the 2nd one.

And maybe I'd want to think about whether the discussion is intended to be a fan discussion or a genealogy discussion. Would that make a difference to where I choose to start the discussion?

My initial sense is that for most of us it will be too complex, too much work. My gut sense, as always, is that when you add complexity you also add confusion.

You call them Fan pages, like that :)
Call them Icon pages, call them Very Impressive, Inspirational, Important, Illuminated Persons Project Pages.

These persons can be big names, but the small unknown persons with their life stories appealing toall of our imaginations. I'd give them a VIP project stage as well.

I know for sure that this is a very important aspect for a lot of users here on Geni. Count me in on that too! These small seemingly insignificant stories with such a big impact. They deserve to be told, not only captured solely on it's profile page but in a project.

That project won't be a copy, won't degrade the value of a profile, it is celebrating it's content in a bigger and in a more communicative community feel like environment.

Right you are. The more I am asked for an explanation, the more complex and unclear it gets. Contra productive.

Now earlier this evening I was asked via PM, to give a concrete example of how a VIP project could function.

Do you think that such an example is needed here or do I leave everybody their imagination unspoiled?

Sorry lads, Tele is calling! Talk to you later :)

Dimitri, I think that begs the question. We're not talking about a difference between telling the story and not telling the story. This is a genealogy website. Of course we're going to tell the story.

The only disagreement here is about how BEST to tell the story.

Over and over I try to emphasize that I am speaking only for myself and not as some kind of expert. So, speaking just for myself and not for anyone else, if I think about my great grandfather I am dead certain that I want his story to be told in his profile. I don't want to also have a project for him. I don't want the extra work of keeping information synced between his profile and a project. I want all the photos and documents uploaded to just one place, his profile. I want any discussions about him centralized in one place, his profile.

To my way of thinking it is a major, horrible, disastrous mistake to fragment the data, especially for "small unknown persons".

Maybe it's different for pop culture superstars. Maybe someone can be interested in Audrey Hepburn on a genealogy website without caring anything about her genealogy. I can easily agree that there might be room for something like that. But, for my ancestors and relatives, no. Just no.

Example of a project with profile mugshots: http://www.geni.com/projects/Hvem-tror-du-at-du-er/1263

I do however wish Geni could give us better WikiText formatting options, and we could create really nice projects,

Dimitri did try to extend the use of images as separators, but experienced that what works in one browser does not work in another.

Bjørn, what I love about that project is that it's thematic. Like most of the projects we've had since the beginning of Geni projects, it pulls together a group of people according to something they have in common, and it's something that is likely to be interesting to a large number of users.

I getting used to the idea and don't want my imagination be spoiled. Because if you start a discussion from a profile it is mostly about the facts and the family. And not about the story behind the person. If you start a discussion from a project is about the story and not the facts. A profile needs to be clean and every fact needs to historical correct. But with a project you need to use your imagination and there you can get inspiration to look further.
In a project you can link the profiles from the characters from the books with the writer. And call those characters the children of the writer.

In a project you are unlimited while with a profile you are limited.

BTW I don't see the problem of solo projects. As long someone does not close the door so that it can become a duo project or a project for a large group of users.

I would more think of it as "the world of ..." (profiles associated with a "notable," not necessarily genealogically), and want to populate the project with those associations. I tried with some difficulty to do this using timeline "events" (say, MLK's funeral). Perhaps a project is the better tool.

I could see it for Bessie Smith

And not forget all the interesting people in her world, past & present.

Exactly, Jeroen.

Private User, you completely convinced me not to spoil anyone's imagination here. It is flowing here at the moment :) and it is giving my the goosebumps all over!

I very much like your explanation, as I do the same of the thoughts of many others that are shared here right now. Absolutely love the diversity!

I think one of the problems with projects is that there are so many projects that it is difficult to know if a project already exists for the story you are interested in. This is one of the reasons we made an Dutch overview project: https://www.geni.com/projects/Project-index-Lage-Landen/18132 and a list: https://www.geni.com/discussions/137304
But these are difficult to keep up to date and are only for Dutch language projects. And if you do not know they exists you might never find them.

For better collaboration it would help to give starting Geni user much better help. The first mail a user gets should give at least some explanation about the settings for mail and some links to some important discussions and some explanation about collaboration and the big tree and some basic use instructions for Geni.

For the Dutch community we have a Geni for dummy's (http://www.geni.com/projects/Nederlandse-handleiding-voor-GENI-GENI...)
But people who could take advantage of it, may not be able to find it.
May be I should start a separate discussion for this frustration.

Back to this discussion:
I think projects about a VIP are useful when there there is more info or questions or related profiles than can easily be managed with the about me and profile discussions. In that case profile discussions can still be used for subjects that concern the profile managers, but other subjects could be handled in a project. Profile managers that are interested can follow the project and those that are not would not be bothered with a lot of mail they might consider a bother. I think most of these projects would not really be about the VIP but may be about a certain aspect of the life or death of that VIP.

And there seems to be a set, ingrown, accepted way of doing things, the way they are done now with the particular set of tools, that I think people are using as an excuse to not do it Dimitri's way, or accept his way. We can break out from that. We can do it differently and and his way looks very attractive to me.

In my opinion his way doesn't take anything away from Geni. Yes, there are thousands of projects but does that mean there can't be many more thousands, and why not? Yes, people find it overwhelming but what are they going to do in a year's time or longer, when the amount of projects has multiplied or doubled?

In my opinion it adds value to Geni. The more projects there are the more people there will be because there'll be a different, more attractive way to some, of doing things. Opening up of possibilities attracts people. Doing things a different way, a more positive way, attracts people. And those people could turn into PAYING MEMBERS.

Thank you Private User, for joining in. You and I discussed a bit what was possible and what wasn't and we both shared our grieves over that incapability of having influence on the layout.

Best thing I could come with, is the trick with the 'TAB' image, using a blank/white image, disappearing in the background, creating a TAB space between two words.

The other thing was an image creating a Hard Break which creates a space between the Title and the body of a text.

Those attributes, amongst a few others makes it possible to work with the limited possibilities we have for the moment.

Visually, with the help of my partner in artistic crime, Loretta Alexandra, M268111, we are looking at the projects from an artistic perspective in combination with graphic design skills, to explore the boundaries of these limited Wiki possibilities we have.

Loretta and I are in the business of making illusions.

Brendan Swemmer, so right you are mentioning the bit in capitals written:

PAYING MEMBERS

If you do not entertain, host a variety which includes a broader field of people, attracted to Geni, they simply get bored and eventually leave Geni.

If we not say: That is just a copy of a Wikipedia page, go on and make one over there.

If we say: Chatting a way in social groups? Eat your hart out on Facebook.

Then we are actually sending people away instead of keeping them here.

So, why not integrate all these things here on Geni.

Why don't we say: Why leave, we can offer you all of it here, gathered on just one website. Come join the great big family that we are. We are going to take care of you, like you will take care of us.

One Big Global Familytree!

With respect, Dimitri, that's circular reasoning.

What is the advantage of creating a project for one person?
Your answer: We can have discussions, which will generate more interest.

How is it different from what we can do with a profile?
Your answer: *silence*

Won't that split the audience?
Your answer: *silence*

The advantages described by Job and Brendan are the advantages of the present system, where profiles are grouped into projects thematically. You're describing something very different.

So what you're looking at is ways to continue developing Geni's creative capacities, which include keeping the "eyeballs on the site" instead of directing them elsewhere.

And what's being pointed at is, perhaps, chaos risk? That is another usability point: if you can't easily navigate, you get frustrated and leave.

Loretta Alexandra & I went to the same high school, some years apart. I had a painting teacher I'll never forget (although I've forgotten her name:)). Her smock, different daily, was covered with paint dabs by the end of the day. She didn't say much. Her advice pretty came down to: paint what you see. Her students always won awards. The work was always individual.

Let's paint what we see.

Private User I'm reminding myself to find (again) & contribute to the project, http://www.geni.com/projects/a-tribute-to-Audrey/4968, the wonderful story about her work as a child Dutch Resistance courier. I wouldn't have known about it without the Resistance projects.

It works better for me if you quoted me of all the stuff I have said sofar, @justin.
Otherwise we keep correcting eachoter with a lot of No's, 'that is not what I have said at all' lol

Do u want me to describe the difference between a profile and a project?
That I could, in my own personal view of course. But why do you want me to battle up against facts that the two are the same/different?

It doesn't matter how it all works technically. Speaking of which, it took me loads of years to understand how Geni actually works, and know maybe the half of it, still.

The difference is just the way how to approach the tools, that already exists.
You say a profile works like this and a project like that. I see that differently, personally.

And apperently there are plenty more visions that show a much broader variety of interpretations how the two working differently, can work together or give eachother the chance to stand more on their own.

Like the profile stating the facts, the projects the background stories.

So it is not so much how I think it all should be understood. I am simply showing others that there is more than one way too look at things. How you to combine or seperate a profile from a project.

What if the audience would split, it means something is changing in the way they percieve projects and profiles. That means we should anticipate on that.

Understand what this need for change entales. I am just an example that apparently my projects are appealing. I can talk about them all day long, but I think it is better you analyze them yourself.

Let it inspire you in new ways/concepts of project making.
I simply refuse to advocate any dogma. Just showing new options, new way of approach, new ways of thinking.

And of all that, you are by far capable of doing so, Justin. You are a intelligent guy, with an independant opinion wich I value highly :)

If you see it differently, then I think it would be worthwhile for you explain at length.

I'm not an artist. For someone dull and unimaginative like me the cheer leading approach doesn't work. You have to walk through it step by step, and take time to give concrete answers to specific questions.

A long time ago, when projects were new on Geni, there was an idea that they could never be anything more than temporary because it seemed obvious they would be used to tackle specific problems. When the problem was solved, the project would dissolve.

I knew within the first 15 minutes of that debate that those people were wrong. Not because I have a brilliant imagination, but because someone took the time to lay out how projects could be a permanent and central part of Geni. I believed in the idea because I saw it could work.

But here, with this idea, I don't see. I feel like I'm asking the same questions over and over, but I'm not getting any concrete answers. I took some time earlier today to lay out the different ways profiles and projects work, and what I see as problems. But I didn't get an answer that talked in the same way about nuts and bolts.

Walk us through an example where there is a profile and a project with only that profile. Then show us why the project approach will do wonderful things that can't be done with just the profile.