Ansigisel of Metz, Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia - Sources?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Monday, June 25, 2018
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6/26/2018 at 1:24 PM

But does it tell you what primary sources it is using to establish Doda as Ansigisel's mother?

No, it doesn't, but since he was head of church, I guess the sources must have been religious and are probably nowx at the vatican due to their rumored famous ancestor....

So it says saint arnoult and dode, f

Parents of saint arnould

Arnoud also named Arnoald, also named BUGGIFE, palatine Count and Ode de Souabe.

His parents
King Clothaire I and Blitilde.

We have to act on faith too.

William the Conqueror's DNA is close to that of King Tutankhamon ( see the project on IGENEA for Tut descendants).

So how do we go from a pharaoh to the conqueror ?

Sometimes faith works too, believing old sources, at least, proper historians of the time?

One of the main reasons these lines have always been discredited is because the famous ancestor of this line is supposed to be jesus himself. Which would be a problem, one called 2000 years of lies.

6/26/2018 at 1:44 PM

Well, as Jesus is suppose to have died without descendants, one can see how that would be discrediting -)

6/26/2018 at 1:46 PM

The Vatican wouldn't keep that kind of documentation from historians. It wouldn't make sense to do that.

All jews are supposed to be married. He was supposed to be 33 when he died, and at the time, any jew would have been married at 20 at the very latest, so this is before he became the " messiah" and patrolled the country.

Even the old fa

Oops, i was going to type that even old fables haveit that giantd mated with earthling women, etctc..

So even if Jesus had come down from the sky in a giant bubble, he would have mated.

Unless he was gay or worst of course, and again, the Nag Hammadi rolls indicate there was a woman in his life.

In all human history ( going backl to Otzi and Lucy, why would Jesus be the only one who is special ? Why would he be the only one in millions of years to come back from the dead ? One has to be scientific about it.

As for the Vatican, my great uncle had access to their archives ( he was a historian and a jew), and yes, they do hide PLENTY. P L E N T Y.

6/26/2018 at 1:58 PM

Besides the reasons to embellish genealogical lines to give nobility ancestral connections to whatever hero or divine right of kings would boost their political standing, the methodology of History as centred around the use of sourced is a modern idea that had only begun to develop in the Enlightenment age.

Why ? Because they built their fortune on Jesus.

Racketting the poors, killing opponants, ransacking castles and emptuing royal trasuries, and they've made Zillions on the very idea a guy was designated by a male god, came back from the dead and was single, too occupied by god to think of sex.

I don't believe jesus was dvine. I think he was a psychic.

6/26/2018 at 2:01 PM

Whether we can prove that Jesus existed at all is a more central topic than his breaking out of his bubble :-)

And when you think of what happened in that region of the world at the time of jesus, because of jesus and how it created wars of religion, I don't see it as embellishing anything.

Well, they are findingt things as of late in that region of the world. One day, we may find a body or a tomb and be beyond all reasonable doubt. And a DNA analysis would confirm or refute who he is by comparing with the rumored descendency.

6/26/2018 at 2:05 PM

lol - so you appreciate why the fact that we have documents from the time comforts us about Ansigisel, and the fact that we don't about Doda seems like it might have left a convenient gap to some historians in the 11th century which they might have needed to fill. MIGHT.

If i may add, the line we're speaking of, Bishop of metz etc, they are prersent in jewishgen, as jews.

If you give me a little time, I " may" be able to find things about Doda. I only statrted today. would you give me a few days ?

6/26/2018 at 2:12 PM

Well, when they find the body, my father is on that direct templar line that descends, and his DNA is already available :-)

Oh cool, I also have many tamplar's blood in me, and William Sinclair is a direct ancestor. Let's hope they do so we can have fun ;)...

I'll try to go back to my latin and find stuff about Doda. That titillated my brain lol !

And many sorrys about my typind, this disease thing I have is in my hands too and it's like very bad arthritis ?

6/26/2018 at 2:21 PM

Of course you can - Doda is going nowhere, and I don't have a vested interest in removing her - and she's attached to this Discussion so she can't float away from us.

Start here, though- http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKSMaiordomi.htm; - where Cawley's already gathered the original documents that can be easily found about her. Then see if you can search down others, or find strong contemporary scholarship that thinks the documents prove his mother's name was Doda. Did they find a document in the vatican cellars in the 11th century to prove her existence, and then promptly hide it again? Or did they fudge one because they needed a saint?
There just may be another daVinci code in this. That would be fun to write:-)

6/26/2018 at 2:22 PM

Carpal Tunnel Syndrome?

Found that

Many historians, including Eduard Hlawitschka, have rejected this information, believing that it results from a confusion with St. Ode, the mother of St. Arnulf, and because of its tardiness.

But, at the time when Ummo wrote his Vita, the genealogy of Saint Arnulf commonly accepted is the

Commemoratio genealogia domni Arnulfi episcopi and confessoris Christi

which makes Arnulf a son of Arnoald and who mentions a Doda among the great aunties of Arnulf. To introduce this name as that of Arnulf's wife is to suggest the existence of a relationship between the spouses. At a time when the Church is very concerned about the impediments to marriage for consanguinity would have been of a nature to serve the reputation of the saint. There is therefore no real reason to reject this late element, which adds nothing to the glory of St. Arnulf and the Carolingians.

During the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, modern historical criticism questioned the validity of Commemoratio. A critical study has shown that St. Arnulf is probably Arnoald's son-in-law. It follows that Doda would actually be Arnoald's daughter, that she would take her name from her great aunt Doda, and then pass it on to her granddaughter Dode, wife of King Thierry III4

Doda's name was Clothilde de Treves they say

https://www.universalis.fr/encyclopedie/arnoul-saint-582-env-640/

Of a large family related to the Merovingian kings, Arnoul was born in Lay-Saint-Christophe, near Nancy. From his wife Doda, daughter of the Count of Boulogne, he had two sons, Anségisel and Cloud. The first married a daughter of Pepin of Landen, and their descendants were born Charlemagne. A prominent figure as administrator of royal domains, Arnoul was, although secular, elected in 614 bishop of Metz. Doda entered a monastery in Trier. Arnoul was both a good shepherd and counselor to kings. He wanted to retire in solitude; King Clotaire II opposed it, but Dagobert finally gave in 629. Arnoul went to live his last ten years near his friend Romaric, the founder of Remiremont (Romarici mons), in the Vosges. He died there on August 16, 640. His body was brought to Metz the following year.

sources primaires
(LA) Fredegar, Fredegarii scholastici Chronicum CUM CONTINUATORIBUS SUIS, ANNEXE sive À SANCTI de Episcopi Turonensis historiam de francorum.
(LA) annales xantenses.
(LA) Monumenta Historica Germaniae: Domus Carolingicae Généalogie.
(LA) Monumenta Historica Germaniae: Chronicon Moissiacensis.
(LA) Gallicarum et Scriptores Rerum Francicarum, tomus tertius.

https://www.persee.fr/doc/rbph_0035-0818_1993_num_71_4_3914

https://www.cairn.info/revue-du-nord-2011-3-page-691.htm

Sorry, most is in french but google translator is ok, better use reverso for latin to english.

6/26/2018 at 4:32 PM

I'm quite surprised anyone would question the decision to disconnect Dode. This is very simple, compared to most problems in medieval genealogy.

There were two men, said to be father and son -- Arnoald and Arnulf (aka Arnoul). The Dode we're talking about was the supposed wife of Arnulf, and mother of Angegisel, Chlodulf, and Walacho.

But something is wrong here.

Dode would have lived in the late 500s to early/mid 600s. The earliest text that says anything about her is the Vita Sancti Arnulfi ("Life of St. Arnulf"), which was composed within living memory of her. Mid 600s. It says the wife of Arnulf was a "noble girl" but it does not give her name.

Then, 300 years later, in the middle of the 900s another source, the Vita Chlodulfi Episcopi ("Life of Bishop Chlodulf") says Chlodulf's mother's name was Dode. Chlodulf was son of Arnulf, so that would mean the unnamed wife of Arnulf was Dode.

300 years. That's quite a gap in dates. It's hard to figure out the truth of it but it's clear the name Dode comes from a very late and possibly unreliable source.

Yes, we can imagine that there might have been sources that are lost. But, we can also imagine there are sources that have been suppressed. And, we can imagine there are sources that got mangled by writers who got confused.

Once we start imagining, we can imagine almost anything. What we know for sure is that genealogists in this time period (a) sometimes invented relationships, and (b) sometimes got confused.

In this case, it was the great German medievalist Eduard Hlawitschka (1928- ) who pointed out that Dode, the wife of Arnulf, could be a mistake for Oda, the wife of his supposed father Arnoald.

I chuckle about Hlawitschka's idea because, until we had locking on Geni, people were always getting the two men and their wives confused, They were merging profiles that shouldn't have been merged and changing the wife's name back and forth between Dode and Oda. This was the example I always used to show why we needed locking.

Hlawitschka might be wrong, but after he showed the problem it became clear there is no good solution based on the surviving evidence. Dode could be the name of Arnulf's wife, but the evidence for it is very poor. And even if that was her name, we don't know anything about her ancestry.

One popular modern theory is that Arnulf's wife really was named Dode, and she was the daughter of the older Arnoald and his wife Oda. That is, Arnulf was son-in-law not son of the older Arnulf. It's a clever solution, but it requires throwing out the sources that say Arnulf was the son of Arnoald.

This turned out to be longer than I wanted, but I hope it helps people understand why I'm so surprised there is any argument here.

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