Rabbi Akiva Hakohen Katz, ABD Saloniki (Alter of Salonika) - Review of Source Mentioned in 'About' Section

Started by Private User on Wednesday, December 1, 2021
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Private User
12/1/2021 at 5:24 PM

The only source I have seen for a birth year of about 1360 for R' Akiva the Elder is this from the About sections of both R' Akiva the Elde and his son R' Yizach:

Sources: Title (book): "A world apart: a memoir of Jewish life in nineteenth century Galicia", Author: Joseph Margoshes, Ira Robinson, Rebecca Margolis. p. 184

I have now reviewed the Margoshes book and did find the reference to R' Akiva, but there is no birth year given. Here is the complete quote from p. 184:

"8) His Excellency, our teacher Rabbi Hayyim Katz, brother of His Excellency Rabbi Akiva Katz of Oben, leader and executive in the city of Prague, may his memory be a blessing, son of his Excellency, our teacher Isaac Katz, head of the rabbinic court in the districts of Galata and Pera in the capital city of Constantinople, son of his Excellency Akiva Kohen Zedek, pure Sephardi, head of the rabbinical court of Salonika, may his memory be a blessing, who was among the exiles of Spain and was accepted as head of the rabbinical court of Salonika."

It is misleading to put these dates and then cite the Margoshes book as the source.

This wording is reminiscent of one of the Hebrew books previously cited in discussions and it is likely that the author of the above genealogy, Rabbi Eliezer Lippa Gartenhoyz, got the information from that same Hebrew book.

The important point is that nowhere is the year 1360 mentioned or even suggested in the Margoshes book, and therefore there is no actual source for that birth year, as far as I know. I am therefore estimating a later birth year of about 1425. Based on the various biographies presented in these discussions it seems that R' Akiva the Elder and his son R' Yitzach went into exile at different times, the former directly from Spain and the latter via the Portugal route, and that all three generations, R' Akiva the Elder, R' Yitzach, and R' Akiva of Uban must have been born in Spain. I have not seen any direct statement about when R' Akiva of Uban departed from Iberia.

The question of Menahem being the father of R' Akiva of Uban will have to await for someone who can read the sources given in the Encyclopedia Judaica for this information.

I do not believe there are any other stones remaining unturned, and in the absence of any evidence to the contrary I myself am going accept a Sephardic origin for R' Akiva the Elder. To each their own conclusions.....

12/2/2021 at 1:54 AM

Private User

As for him being of Spanish descent, I was confident in this information all the time. There are sources in which it is also written
ס"ט=Sephardic origin

Regarding Menahem being the father of R 'Akiva of Uban, If the information is written in Hebrew, and if you send me a link, I can read and write what is written in the information

In addition there is information that can help us go back about his family, because he is known to be a descendant of Rabbi Yehuda hachassid through an ancient mother

12/2/2021 at 2:29 AM

Wow Private User
This is a big moment… We’ve changed your mind about his origins. Again I think we should look into salonikan and Spanish sources for hints or details, I still think there’s a connection with Ben Ardut. In terms of Menachem, I’ve only seen the name mentioned in scholarly sources, none of which have sent me to a genealogical source or have given me any conclusive proof that the name was Menachem. This is in contrast to every genealogical source I’ve seen, so I’m skeptical about those sources.

Private User
12/2/2021 at 9:06 AM

Haim Wartski, HaCohen Unfortunately all the listed sources under the Menahem article are in european languages, which I post here for future reference:
...B. Mandl, in: Mult és Jövő, 25 (1935), 316; mhj, 2 (1937), 537–8; A. Schreiber, Hebraeische Kodexueberreste in ungarlaendischen Einbandstafeln (1969), 122." These are not easy to find (I have tried) and will probably require someone with access to a specialized library.

Eli Rubin Yes it is, the cause of confusion were the birth years someone gave for R' Akiva the Elder (1350) and his son R' Yitzach (1400), which cast doubt on their being in the main group of Spanish exiles (ca 1500), and raised the possibility of various other migration routes to Salonika. Since those dates now appear to have been invented, the only evidence available suggests 'pure Sephardic... from Spain', and the birth years should be moved forward accordingly. It should be remembered that this evidence for the Sephardic/Spanish information is from a book written I believe in the 19th Century (many centuries after the facts), but there is no evidence to the contrary (and we have looked in quite a few places). There is now no reason to reject the Sephardic/Spanish hypothesis, even though the evidence for it is not overwhelming.

Private User
12/2/2021 at 9:14 AM

here is a little more detail on one of the B. Mandl sources given above: Bernát Mandl: A budai Akiba herceg. 1935. 2216.1, in Mult és Jövő, 25.

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