Frans Edward Prins, (b. O'Brien) SV/PROG

DEPOT KAB SOURCE MOOC TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 7/1/256 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 67 PART 1 DESCRIPTION FOUCHE, CATHARINA MAGDALENA. WIFE OF FRANCIS EDUARD PRINS. WILL. STARTING 18350000 ENDING 18350000 REMARKS FILED 1861.

DEPOT KAB SOURCE CO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 3989 SYSTEM 00 REFERENCE 37 PART 1 DESCRIPTION MEMORIALS RECEIVED. CATHARINA MAGDALENA FOUCHE, WIDOW OF FRANS

          EDWARD PRINS. REMISSION OF TRANSFER DUES.                             STARTING  1836                                                                   ENDING    1836  

* Verbal Traditions - told over many years by my family members, to the next generations:

My 3rd great grandfather - Old Ancestor Francis Edward Prins (O’ Brien) - (not sure about spelling of names/surnames) – apparently changed his surname from O’Brien to Prince or Prins, (we don’t really know why!) - when he arrived in c. 1796, (not verified), from North West Ireland, (supposedly from Caledon.) We think this Caledon place, was from the Province Ulster, County Tyrone, Barony of Dungannon, Parish Augaloo / Ageloo? Caledon was called Kennard in the old times and was located more or less 112 kms from Dublin. (Ongoing research.)

Some discrepancies in the spelling of his name:
Also known as Franciscus Eduard; Francis Edwart; Frans Eduard; Frans Edward and even Frans Eduward. Also : The spelling of the surname Prins is also sometimes done as Prince. One leg of descendants kept their surname as Prince. Note: Also spelling variants in the O' Brien, O' Brian etc. Confusing! He was probably born there in c. 1770 and he died in the Cape of Good Hope c. between 1820 - 1837 (not verified by docs, grave not yet found! Cannot trace him after his last child's baptism. We were told he maybe died under weird circumstances either in a fire, or drowned - (all not verified!).

NB Note: Still living however in 1820 - at the conception and baptism of his last daughter Aletta Elsje Prins! https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSVD-5SZD-M?cc=147...

We think he was possibly initially in the Royal Irish Dragoons and that he was maybe in either the 8th, 9th or 10 th to 14th Regiments. (Not verified.) Cannot trace him anywhere as a military man in the navy, or army!

He definitely married a Catharina Magdalena Fouche, a French Huguenot lady - in 1807 and they then settled in Robertson, Cape of Good Hope. (Verified)
See marriage certificate. F E Prins ( O' Brien) S/V PROG:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSVD-5S4N-4?cc=147...

Their children’s names etc. are here on Geni. (Now all kids are verified with this Probate doc of his wife:
DEPOT KAB SOURCE MOOC TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 7/1/118 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 36 PART 1 DESCRIPTION FOETSE, CATHARINA MAGDALENA. WIFE OF FRANCIS EDUARD PRINS. WILL. STARTING 18160000 ENDING 18160000 REMARKS FILED 1832.
Catharina Magdalena Fouche Probate from 1859 to 1861 Cape Province, South Africa 83 Deceased from 1776 to 1778 Worcester 17 Jul 1861 0 Francis Edward Prins Probate from 1859 to 1861 Cape Province, South Africa Spouse 1 Stephanus Fouche Probate from 1859 to 1861 Cape Province, South Africa Parent 2 Anna Elisabeth Villiers Probate from 1859 to 1861 Cape Province, South Africa Parent 3 Francis Edward Prins Probate from 1859 to 1861 Cape Province, South Africa Child 4 Catharina Alletta Prins Probate from 1859 to 1861 Cape Province, South Africa Child 5 Christiaan Pieter De Wit Probate from 1859 to 1861 Cape Province, South Africa Child-In-Law 6 Alletta Elsje Prins Probate from 1859 to 1861 Cape Province, South Africa Child 7 John Quin Probate from 1859 to 1861 Cape Province, South Africa Child-In-Law 8 Daniel Stephanus Prins Probate from 1859 to 1861 Cape Province, South Africa Child 9 Alletta Mulder Probate from 1859 to 1861 Cape Province, South Africa Child-In-Law 10
Note: Anna Elisabeth Prins not mentioned on here!

So - hereby the verbal family traditions:

This old ancestor apparently ran away / deserted from his ancestral and family commitments in Ireland (as I said - what that were, is anyone's guess!) We were told he apparently also then deserted from his regiment in either Ireland / South Africa when / or after his flight took him to the Cape of Good Hope, in South Africa. Dates are confusing!

We were told that his ancestral family were very rich and possibly from noble descent and well known. Castles etc. - hence maybe the name Prins (maybe it was even Prince in the beginning and/or when he arrived in RSA – to show his apparent noble descent and then it might again have changed, to the Dutch/ Afrikaans version - Prins, all in order , maybe not be found? Not verified.

The connection with The Dromoland Castle and the Thomond O’ Brien clan, or The O’Niall (and variants spellings) clans, also come into question. My dad in his old age - was quite the spitting image of the current 18th Baron of Inchiquin! (Wishful thinking?) This current Baron of Inchiquin is: Conor Myles John O'Brien, 18th Baron Inchiquin, (born 17 July 1943) and he is the holder of a hereditary peerage in the Peerage of Ireland, as well as Chief of the Name of O'Brien and Prince of Thomond in the Gaelic Irish nobility. Conor Myles John O'Brien is the 30th in direct descent, from High King Brian Ború.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Boru the first High King of a unified Ireland (around 1066 AD) High King Brian O' Boru - is in Conor Myles John O'Brien's direct ancestral line! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conor_O%27Brien,_18th_Baron_Inchiquin

We are now trying to establish this old S/V PROG's ancestors' specific O' Brien clan in Ireland and also if he actually had any O’ Brien genes, or maybe even now rather - O’ Niall genes in him, or not. (Very confusing - but I am trying to learn, as I try to research this field.)

Anyway - his supposedly well to do father in Ireland - (according to verbal traditions,) sent a fleet of his own ships? - because he was a wealthy ship magnate? - to search for his lost son (not verified!) The fleet traced him and they then found him the 1st time, in Cape of Good Hope. They then brought him back to Ireland, his father and family and other commitments. What were those commitments?

He then ran away again (2nd time?) - back to South Africa and went into hiding and to work as a ’’bywoner/shepherd’’ on a sheep farm, of this Fouche Family, who were well known French Hugenot Settlers, with a Fouche daughter, he then later married. Marriage is confirmed with docs. His timeline in all of this however, is confusing here! It is not sure if he had changed his name already the 1st, or 2nd time absconding from Ireland - or exactly when he arrived at the Cape, in order to not be found by the father and the regiment the first time.

Now for the juicy bit! He apparently also played the violin, in his little shack and the beautiful music was heard in the Fouche Huguenot family’s house. There are stories of a Stradivarius violin, somewhere packed away on a farm in the Cape – no trace of it yet and the search goes on! (We should be so lucky to find it!)

We now however, did find a Prins family Bible! Amazing new discovery! Names and dates inside differ from what I have on my few docs though! Confusing, but very interesting - as MB Polack's name was also written in front of the BibIe: Mauritz Bernard Polack (Esq).

M B Pollack's connection here to The Prins family surname, is with his wife he married x G J M A Kaltwasser. Interesting that Robertson and Worcester are full of lines of Prins families and descendants, some of who were dabbling in vineyards and wine making. Also very interesting - is that S/V PROG's one daughter: Aletta Elsje Quin (born Prins) - married a John Quin - from Ireland! Did S/V PROG maybe knew him from his life in Ireland? Who knows!

A very important copied letter note is also in our possession, where it is mentioned - that the Duke of Bedford - in Cape of Good Hope at that time - recognized him, at the inauguration of the town of Robertson, c. 1852 and /or when the Breede river was flooded and where he gallantly helped out in the crisis. We just don't know if this letter was about the first old S/V PROG, or maybe rather his 1st son *1808? Dates are again confusing! The names Patrick and John O’ Brien (as other identities in this saga) - are also maybe becoming an option – not verified yet, as they are also mentioned, on the small letter note. They have not been traced yet. Old S/V PROG could also maybe easily have fiddled with any of his dates that were given, where needed - if he wanted not to be found? All of this is very confusing!

The Duke Of Bedford said – he will provide forgiveness and that this first F E Prins (O’ Brien) must come back’’- all according to the handwritten letter note. Could this maybe be the mentioning of a type of legal pardon, by a high ranking official, that was sometimes given to some military deserters, in certain cases? So - what the forgiveness was for - (maybe primarily for deserting from the army and The Dukes’ Regiments?) – we simply don’t know. Was he maybe a bigamist as well? (Sorry dear ancestor!) So many riddles!

This Duke of Bedford’s house in South Africa - is the currently the country manor - called Cascade, in the Breede River Valley.

We also do not know if this old ancestor was maybe just an old rogue, or crook, or very shrewd - in just telling these stories about his noble Irish ancestry, only to impress his new bride and soon to be in-laws! Verbal family traditions can obviously also get a life of their own, through time. Very difficult to get to those facts, but the verbal tradition is still running strong about him and all these things! Very interesting to know of this beign handed verbally through generations and generations, however!

F E Prins (O' Brien) S/V PROG was then at some stage, asked to move into the Fouche's house and to eat at their table, instead of having his meals outside the house, (like a plain servant ) - as all could see he was from noble descent and fine upbringing. He also had a very good knowledge of wineries as well. This is a very important fact if this could be connected to the Wine Taster's story.

I am still, in relation to his knowledge of winemaking - researching another man ie Captain Edward O' Brien - by profession called The Deputy Wine Taster- at the Cape of Good Hope, as there are quite a lot of similarities between him and this old S/V PROG ancestor! Dates are still possibly problematic however! Maybe they were the same man? Our ancestor's docs about his death and his grave are still lacking. We do know he must still have lived in 1820 as he was mentioned on his last daughter's baptism.

Interesting however - is to read about this Deputy Wine Taster's wild life and his - fall from grace and to learn about his unidentified grave as well! Also important, is to read about the unmarked graves of some slaves and other delinquent / homeless people, that were recently dug up and moved to the Castle - so the remains could be re-buried there. Was he maybe part of this group and reburied and that is why his grave is not found?

The Deputy Wine Taster's story: p 566 Captain O' Brien https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/The_Gentleman_s_Magazine/xE...

So - was this old elusive Frans Edward Prins (O’ Brien), really an O' Brien, or not - and why did he then changed his name to Prince or Prins, of all surnames? Many of our cousins in our Prins branch's names, are named Frans Edward O' Brien Greyling (and variants in the spelling of the Frans and Edward and O Brien / O' Brian etc).

• In 2014 I have tested my dad Joseph Philippus Greyling's Dna - with myfamiltreeDNA. (At the time of testing I had no clue what his results all meant and I tired to get to his Ydna connection to SV Prins.)
• (Note: In my early days re: dna interpretations, I did not know that the Ydna of this F E Prins (O’ Brien) S/V PROG obviously could not have gone through/via his daughter's, to my dad, because my dad’ s link to him - is through my dad's mtdna matriarchal lines / the connections of: Martha Elizabeth Prins, Maria Elizabeth Prins (born Kok) and Elsie Sophia Geldenhuijzen (born Prins) . Dad’s Ydna thus cannot show the Prins ( O’ Brien) Y DNA.

My Dad's Greyling dna is: Joseph Philippus (Seph) Greyling Latest results: R-ZP91

• We were all still eager to learn more about dad's Prins (O' Brien) Dna connections though and because of that - we tested another very direct and close male family member: Frans Edward Prins. He bears the changed surname Prins (without the O' Brien in his name or surname) and he is also more closely linked to this elusive old forefather in his Ydna branch, in the Prins ( O'Brien) line. Frans 's Ydna show that some of his dna markers are possibly more inclined towards the O’ Niall / O' Neill clans and maybe not so much towards the O’ Brien clans!) Weird! The plot thickens ....... His very in depth testing for Ydna was: R-M269 and R-BY176666.

So - was this old Frans Edward Prins(O’ Brien) S/V PROG (remember name and surname variants) really an O' Brien and could he possibly be linked to the High King Boru and Dromoland/s' O' Brien's, in the first place, or not? Calling on all Greyling, Kok, Prins, Prince, Kaltwasser and O' Brien, O'Niall (and spelling variants) - surnames in the world - specifically Ireland and South Africa. Can you, or anyone else PLEASE help us to trace this elusive old S/V ancestor in Ireland and South Africa!

Thanks for your very kind patience to read through all of this! Much appreciated. Wilma Basson (born Greyling): Wilma Greyling (Basson) - currently unavailable

• http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm30ddf0?202008060...
• DEPOT KAB SOURCE MOOC TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 7/1/118 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 36 PART 1 DESCRIPTION PRINS, FRANCIS EDUARD. WILL. STARTING 18160000 ENDING 18160000 REMARKS FILED 1832.
• DEPOT KAB SOURCE MOOC TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 7/1/118 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 36 PART 1 DESCRIPTION FOETSE, CATHARINA MAGDALENA. WIFE OF FRANCIS EDUARD PRINS. WILL. STARTING 18160000 ENDING 18160000 REMARKS FILED 1832.
• DEPOT KAB SOURCE CO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 3989 SYSTEM 00 REFERENCE 37 PART 1 DESCRIPTION MEMORIALS RECEIVED. CATHARINA MAGDALENA FOUCHE, WIDOW OF FRANS

          EDWARD PRINS. REMISSION OF TRANSFER DUES.                             STARTING  1836                                                                   ENDING    1836  

* DEPOT KAB SOURCE MOOC TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 7/1/256 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 67 PART 1 DESCRIPTION FOUCHE, CATHARINA MAGDALENA. WIFE OF FRANCIS EDUARD PRINS. WILL. STARTING 18350000 ENDING 18350000 REMARKS FILED 1861

• DEPOT KAB SOURCE MOOC TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 7/1/118 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 36 PART 1 DESCRIPTION PRINS, FRANCIS EDUARD. WILL. STARTING 18160000 ENDING 18160000 REMARKS FILED 1832.
• DEPOT KAB SOURCE MOOC TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 7/1/118 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 36 PART 1 DESCRIPTION FOETSE, CATHARINA MAGDALENA. WIFE OF FRANCIS EDUARD PRINS. WILL. STARTING 18160000 ENDING 18160000 REMARKS FILED 1832.
• DEPOT KAB SOURCE MOOC TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 7/1/143 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 97 PART 1 DESCRIPTION PRINS, FRANS EDWARD. WILL. STARTING 18370000 ENDING 18370000 REMARKS FILED 1837.
• Source SAG : Francis Edward Prince (Hy is volgens oorlewering gebore as O’Brien, maar het later sy van na Prince verander) * Ierland c. 1770 a. v. Caledon, Ierland x Tulbagh 11.10.1807 Catharina Magdalena FOUCHÉ * 7.5.1778 ≈ 21.5.1778 † Worcester 17.7.1861 (83.2.10) d.v. Stephanus Fouché en Anna Elisabeth Cilliers
• 06/02/2023:

Soooo excited now:
On a transcribed doc that Herman Booysens did so gallantly for me, two new names/ areas ( farms) came up:
Waaghoek in the distritct Worcester and Bosjesmansvalley. This is connected to his wife though!
BUT: Maybe he is burried on one of these farms, in a very small family cemetery? The search for him goes on! - Wilma