Old Celtic Pedigrees

Started by Erica Howton on Saturday, March 3, 2012
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3/3/2012 at 3:41 PM

http://www.geni.com/people/Justin-Swanstr%C3%B6m/6000000007278581048 mentioned, in passing in another discussion, these spurious pedigrees:

- the descent of the Anglo-Saxon kings from Woden is a notorious forgery, grafting on a Welsh pedigree to an Anglo-Saxon tradition
- The descent of the Jarls of Orkney is also easily disproved

If anyone has more to add, please do so.

3/3/2012 at 3:55 PM

Here's a start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancestry_of_the_kings_of_Wessex

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerdic#Origins

I can provide more info and detail, but it'll be a long-term project, not something I can collate overnight ;)

The curators who specialize in these areas and manage the MPs probably have more information readily available.

3/3/2012 at 3:59 PM

I'm thinking a "heads up" in this discussion is a good start, and then we can get into detail in related "fictional genealogy" projects.

3/3/2012 at 4:02 PM

Get Remi involved. He'll pull in all the fun debate, and keep the thread fresh for months to come ;)

3/3/2012 at 4:23 PM

I like you, Justin, and I'm really enjoying this, though you are the historian and I'm just reading norwegain sources. I'm allready in this in several discussions, allthough I'm completly a layman. I'll try to do the best job I can.......

3/3/2012 at 4:51 PM

Maybe it means Norwegian sources are pretty good on Celts?

3/3/2012 at 5:08 PM

Erica, not meaning to offend anyone, but really. The Scandinavians practically invented scholarship. Okay, maybe not really "invented". But they are amazing historical scholars. And, I know you're getting ready to ask, so I'll admit it -- yes, I get my talent from the Swedish side ;)

3/3/2012 at 6:14 PM

And now I'm even more proud of our common heritage, Justin. :-)

3/3/2012 at 7:58 PM

Nobody heard of the Torah? :)

3/3/2012 at 9:22 PM

Ah, but the Torah makes superb religious scholars. That's a whole different field ;)

3/5/2012 at 1:05 AM

I wonder how much difference there is between 'spurious pedigrees' and 'fictional genealogies' when we go as far back as these eras?

To me the Orkney Jarl's sagas are less about establishing pedigrees (although they are that too) than about creating a narrative continuity (according to Terry Pratchett, "Humans add narrativium to their world. They insist in interpreting the universe as if it's telling a story. This leads them to focus on facts that fit the story, while ignoring those that don't")

So the Karl Hunderson of the Orkneysagas may or may not be the Viking name for Macbeth, and may or may not be the Henderson family progenitor – but this is not a question of spurious genealogy, so much as poetic licence and linguistic differences lost in translation.

And Eithne / Audna Kjarvalsdatter, Princess of Ireland Audna, fabled to be Cearbhal’s daughter, is obviously spurious, as she’s born 30 yrs after his death –(so I’ve finally had to lock her profile to stop it being reconnected to him); but it is an important part of the story of the gentic link of the Orkneyjarls to Ireland, and the narrative connection suggests to me there’s a good chance she is a gggranddaughter – though no way to prove it.

Shakespeare’s attribution of Banquo to James I’s pedigree is more clearly spurious genealogy, for me.

3/5/2012 at 7:37 AM

I see your point, Sharon. I was surprised when this project was created, but I think I see the reason.

My understanding, based on the project profiles, is that Fictional Genealogy is for profiles of people who never really lived, while Spurious Pedigrees is for people who have been attached to the wrong (perhaps fictional) ancestors.

So, Banquo is fictional, but Audna Kjarvalsdottir's pedigree is spurious.

I'd like to read Pratchett's article. The idea that history is narrative rather than fact is the starting point for most modern academics. It's one of the reasons we don't get many famous historians to take genealogy seriously. To quote one of my old professors, "It doesn't matter whether it was true; what matters is what people believed to be true." ;)

3/5/2012 at 9:22 AM

'strue :-)

3/5/2012 at 12:14 PM

Sharon,

If you are interested in the kings of Osraige (Ossory), one of the best sources I know is Stewart Baldwin's web page on them:

http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/Ireland/Osr/lists/Osraige.htm

3/5/2012 at 11:03 PM

That's fascinating, Justin - I haven't worked in this area for a while - so perhaps will go back there. The intermarriages and cross-namings with the Vikings are what took me there in the first place. Will post more once I've had a chance to read it. Right now I'm doing IQ tests and reports, so will be in a couple of days :-(

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