Pepin I de Landen - Does Pepin, the Grandfather of Pepin I , exist?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Friday, June 29, 2012

Participants:

Profiles Mentioned:

Related Projects:

Showing all 19 posts
6/29/2012 at 8:32 AM

Does Pepin, the Grandfather of Pepin I , exist?

- http://globalgenealogy.com/globalgazette/gazxs/gazxs46.html has NN parents for Pepin I, with a Pepin as one of their parents. But http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepin_I names his father as Carloman and NN for his mother, & no grandparents. On our tree, Pepin I's mother is Gertrudis (whose father is Garibald, not Pepin), & his father is Carloman (whose father is Charles, not Pepin)

MY DECISION WOULD BE TO REMOVE PEPIN, GRANDFATHER OF PEPIN I , because the source for this: http://globalgenealogy.com/globalgazette/gazxs/gazxs46.htm also gets the Heristal/Landen Pepins wrong, so I feel I shouldn’t trust it. THAT MEANS WE’RE GOING WITH THE WIKIPAEDIA VERSION OF THE FATHER AS CARLOMAN,;BUT THAT DOESN’T GET AS FAR BACK AS THE GRANDPARENTS – A LTHOUGH OUR TREE DOES.

So Many Pepin’s: ! This is the PEPIN DISAMBIGUATION TEMPLATE from the Charlemagne Project: http://www.geni.com/projects/Charlemagne-Emperor-of-the-West/1550 if it’s helpful:

From youngest:

'"Pépin" Carloman, King of Italy, son of Charlemagne & Hildegard d810 , King of Italy, originally called Carloman, son of Charlemagne & Hildegard of Vinzgouw, wife of Charlemagne

Pippin the Hunchback, son of Charlemagne & Himiltrude d811 , eldest, but 'illegitimate' son of Charlemagne & Himiltrude, concubine of Charlemagne

Pépin III "le Bref", King of the Franks Pepin III d768 , '”le Bref” The Short', Mayor of the Palace of Neustria, King of the Franks, father of Charlemagne; son of Charles "Martel", Prince of the Franks & Pépin III "le Bref", King of the Franks

Pepin II d'Héristal, Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia Pepin II d714 , 'The Younger' or 'The Middle' 'of Heristal', Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia, Neustria & Burgundy, paternal grandfather of Pépin III "le Bref", King of the Franks Pepin III d768 through Charles "Martel", Prince of the Franks; son of Saint Beggue of Austrasia & Ansigisel de Metz, Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia

Pepin of Landen I d639 , 'The Elder' 'of Landen', Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia m Saint Itta van Nijvel was the maternal grandfather of Pepin II d'Héristal, Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia d714 , through Saint Beggue of Austrasia

6/30/2012 at 5:40 AM

Justin Swanström points out that he's never seen a credible suggestion for Carolman, father of Pepin I.
Anybody who wants to research this further; & update accordingly is ENCOURAGED to jump in :-)

6/30/2012 at 5:45 AM

I see Henn Sarv & Lauri Kreen, Ͼ have a Pepin project, so perhaps they'd be interested in helping here.

6/30/2012 at 8:02 AM

Clarification: I haven't seen a credible suggestion for the father of Carloman.

6/30/2012 at 8:12 AM

:-)

7/1/2012 at 2:34 AM

Most credible resource (in my opinion) to check is in the Medieval Lands project of the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy:
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKSMaiordomi.htm#_Toc284005993
They use sources of the time to corroborate the information. No father provided for Pepin I de Landen....

7/1/2012 at 2:38 AM

Or, as an alternative we could look at genealogics.org and the sources they list:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020925&tre...

7/1/2012 at 3:27 AM

bonjour
Pour mémoire:
Le père de charlemagne est Pépin3 dit "Pépin le bref" pour sa petite taille . son épouse est Berthe de Laon dite Berthe aux grands pieds"

Le père de Pépin3 est Charles Martel (676.741) son épouse est Chrotrude de Treves de Hesbaye.

Le père de Charles Martel est Pépin 2 de Herstalle (615.678) dit le "jeune". Son épouse est Alpaïs de Bruyéres (660.705)

Le père de Pépin 2 est Anségise de Metz (615.678) son épouse est Begga de Landen (620.693)

Le père d'Anségise de Metz est Arnould de Metz dit Saint Arnould (582.640) son épouse Doda de Treves (590. ...)

7/1/2012 at 9:06 AM

Bonjour Michel
Does you list above disagree with anything on the Pepin list in the first posting?

Yes Johann- We like Cawley's Medlands too: - I've used him as a basis for the Charlemagne partners & children project : http://www.geni.com/projects/Charlemagne-Emperor-of-the-West/1550
So I would tend to go with that as well. (& I suspect so would Justin.)

geneologics is good because it is careful to source - so you can decide what degree of validity you choose to give the information they post.

7/1/2012 at 12:50 PM

Wikepedia is NOT a reliable source for info

7/1/2012 at 1:50 PM

In many instances Wikipedia is an excellent source of information, as it provides links to sources & often (in this era) - to the online copy of the primary text - which allows you to judge the veracity of the data it provides.

It is the undiscriminating consumption of the data on Wikipedia which is the problem (and that principle applies to every other source we use as well, including the genealogical data bases)
That's why we're having this discussion :-)

7/1/2012 at 2:34 PM

Absolutely agreed, Sharon!

7/2/2012 at 5:19 AM

The history of the Franks & Merovingian empire has been pretty well documented by comparison to other periods in history. There are many well researched books that would do a better job of answering your question of the line of linage and information source. I like Wikepedia for information but wouldn't use it as a principal source.

7/2/2012 at 6:13 AM

Nicole - that's it in a nutshell -

We're looking for a primary source for the name of Pepin I's grandfather. Failing a primary source - we're looking for a decent secondary source argument.

Everybody - go forth & search your resource documents & books to see if we can find one.

7/2/2012 at 1:41 PM

Reading some of the discussion, I'm confused. Are some of us taling about different Pepins?

Much of this area relies on reconstructions, not primary sources. Perhaps there is some confusion between competing theories.

Here is one possible reconstruction, using Ahnentafel numbers:

1. Charles Martel
2. Pepin le Gros
4. Dux Ansegisel
5. St. Beggue
8. St. Arnoul II de Metz
9. Doda
10. Pepin the Old de Landen, Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia
11. Iduberga
16. St. Bodegisel
17. Oda / Chrodoara
18. St. Arnoul I de Metz
19. Oda from Swabia
20. Carloman (here called Carloman de Landen for some reason).
21. Gertrud?
22. (same as 18)
23. (same as 19)

For some good discussions on these lines, see:

* https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!searchin/soc...

* https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!searchin/soc...

* https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!searchin/soc...

MedLands doesn't name the father of Pepin the Old, but Genealogics says Pepin was son of Carloman, and cites Fredegar as a source. Whatever we think of Fredegar as a source, he's probably all there is.

http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020930&tre...

The profile for Carloman "de Landen" calls him Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia, but he does not appear on the Wikipedia list of mayors:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayors_of_the_palace#Mayors_of_the_Pal...

Carloman also doesn't appear on MedLands as one of the Austrasian mayors. I suspect someone has confused him with his descendant of the same name who lived 100 years later (died 754 not 645).

7/3/2012 at 4:22 AM

Pépin Carloman, dit Carlomann, est le fils de charlemagne et petit fils de Pépin le Bref.

7/3/2012 at 4:39 AM

I've just taken a look at the Geni tree above Charlemagne and back from Pepin, and it looks radically different from your description here, Justin; & radically different from the tree that I posted the above message about on the Charlemagne project about 6mnths to a year ago.
(At the time Chucky's tree was being rearranged on a weekly basis by people merging the wrong Pepins into each other higher up on the tree, so I'd started that Pepin disambiguation note to try and help - although my area was only monitoring Chucky and his direct kids. (And I'd still like to keep it that way)

When George J. Homs mentioned that he was working on the Pepins, I thought it might be useful to post what I already had on record in a Discussion, in order to revive the interest of everyone in helping clean it up.
(Starting a profile discussion wasn't an option when I was faced with the above 'name of Pepin I's grandpa' dilemma - so re-posting it now seemed a useful record of what had cropped up before.)

So George & others above - failing other input, it seems logical to me to go with Justin's findings in the post above.
If Fredegar is what we've got, then I agree that we should cite him, unless we can find sources to prove differently.

My vested interest is not in a particular line, but in the stability of the tree above Chucky -because the ripple effects of continuously changing incorrect merges above him, affect the two generations that I curate.

Do people want to jump in and work on straightening it out, and use this Discussion to log what you've done - so noone has to re-invent the wheel in the future?

Justin's post offers an excellent way in & I'd use that to start with... :-)

Private User
7/3/2012 at 4:03 PM

This is what I have:

Count Warinus d. 677

Leutivinus -- wife?

Rotrou d. 724 ---- Charles Martel

Pepin ( The Short) 1st king of Franks m. Bertha

Charlemage m. Hilegarde

Pepin

Bernard / Bernard m. Kunigude/ Cunigunde

Pepin ( Seigneur Pepin de Perone
a son Herbert 1 Count od senlea m. bertha and a daughter Beatrice de Vermanadois m. Robert the 1st , King of France. another dau. Alice

Herbert 2nd Count of vermandois m. Liegide

Robert Count of Troyes m Adelaide

Adelaide de Vermandois m. Geoffrey 1st. of Anjou

Faulk 3rd, The Black m. Hildegarde

Private User
7/3/2012 at 9:44 PM

Acturally Charlemagne had two two sons named Pepi. Pepin the Hunchback betrayed his father and Carolman became Pepin after that.

Showing all 19 posts

Create a free account or login to participate in this discussion