Thyra "Danebod" Haraldsdatter, Dronning af (Vest)Danmark - Who was the father of Thyra Danebod?

Started by Peder Dahlman on Sunday, June 23, 2013

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6/23/2013 at 12:26 PM

This is what it looks like today (2013-06-23):

Thyra Danebod (898-950) -->

Father: Harald Klak of Denmark (800-844)

Mother: Queen Aaflaeda (878-968)

Harald Klak of Denmark (800-844) -->

Father: Halfdan Haraldsson (777-810)

Mother: Helga Dagsdottir (770-?)

Queen Aaflaeda (878-968) -->

Father: Earl Etherhelm (848-962)

Mother: Elswitha Elswitha (?-?)

According to this, Harald Klak had been dead for more than 50 years when Thyra Danebod was born. It does not make sense. Harald Klak cannot have been Thyra Danebod’s father, even though Snorre Sturlasson claims he was.

Saxo Grammaticus tells about Thyra Danebod and her father, which Saxo says was Æthelred of Wessex. Saxo most likely meant Edward the Elder of Wessex.

I therefore suggest Edward I ’The Elder’ (King of the Anglo-Saxons) to be set as father of Thyra Danebod replacing Harald Klak:
Edward I "The Elder", King of the Anglo-Saxons

Do you disagree or have you got any other suggestions?

Kind regards,
Peder Dahlman

6/23/2013 at 1:33 PM

The years are usually complete guesswork, and due to the hundreds of merges on these profiles, they are a melange of inconsistent patterns of guesswork; you should NEVER base anything on the years on the profiles.

What you SHOULD be basing things on are sources.

Edward the Elder is marked 869-924, so is not likely to be matching the best known Æthelred of Wessex (who Wikipedia says lived 837-871) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86thelred_of_Wessex) - the corresponding Geni profile is Æþelræd I 'the Pious', King of Wessex & Kent

Have you got an online reference to the passage from Saxo Grammaticus that describes her parentage?

If you want to work on Thyra, editing her "about me" to give the sources and what they state about her is a very good first start; today, it's all too plain that the profile is the merger of many different profiles, several of which have copy/pasted Wikipedia articles. The focus of Geni is genealogy; we can present the information we're interested in and its sources better than that.

6/23/2013 at 1:52 PM

Harald Tveit... do you really mean that ofline Saxo is not a scource???

It seems that there is a neverending twist about sources.

Show me please where Geni demands sources.

And/or show me where the genealogists list over approved sources are.

6/23/2013 at 1:54 PM

Thank you Harald for your swift reply!

In the 9th book, written by Saxo, it reads:

"This man was counselled by the elders to celebrate the rites of marriage, and he wooed Thyra, the daughter of Ethelred, the king of the English, for his wife."

Link:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1150/1150-h/1150-h.htm

You got to scroll down, almost to the bottom of the page, to read the text from this e-book.

Hopefully you'll find it good enough.

Kind regards,
Peder Dahlman

6/23/2013 at 1:59 PM

Thyra Danebod = 303 managers

Tilføjet af:
Sherry Cadenhead Klein den 3. marts 2007

Administreres af:
Torsten Cargnelli, Margaret (C), Jon Randall Edwards, Harald Sævold, Flemming Allan Funch, Sherry Cadenhead Klein, Dick Brunebjerg, Jenny Anna Elisabeth Roos, Olow Magnus Ljungkvist, Per Sven Erik Malmborg, Henn Sarv, David John Bilodeau, David Lee Kaleita, LCDR Richard Nicholas Ragland, Ingvar Ejdfors, Susanne* Åström, Dorthe Annette Melin, Susanna Ingrid Engberg Barnevik, Heidi Suarez, GM, Nils Jakobsson, Paul Holman, Bjørn Petter Brox, Erik Fosli, Ole Helle-Broe, Lauge Richard Clemmensen, Henrik Eskerod, Henning Rossen Haugaard, Søren Færch Jensen, James Murriner, Richard Joseph Patterson, Björn Rune Rolfsson Gyllensvärd, Steven Avery Kelley, Patricia Ann Topping, Peter Alan Dutton, Jr., Anette Husum Hansen, Aage Steen Søes Rasmussen, Abigail Peart, Jon Brees Thogmartin FTDNA Mcclendon, Peter Andrew Jay, Anna Kristina Feltsen, Brian Yoos, Ulrika Ekberg, Jessica Sjöberg, Anne Bakmand, James Frederick Pultz, Rachel Lehman Groessel, Holly Gaye Peterson, Michael Kevin Dolan, Sr., Christian Krogsgård, Pablo Menéndez-Ponte Alonso, Johan Hans Persson, Aud Ragnhild Salo, Joyce Ann Whitaker (Brock), Martin, Hans...Gotthold Wallin, Lena Larsson, Egil Oknadal (Skopun), Ola Lillenes, Jukka Robert Blomqvist, Desiree Gay Stratford, Connie Barrow, Jeffrey Roland Gentes, Catherine Neal White, Christer Lyrholm, Ofir Friedman, Aimo Kalervo Suikkanen, Janus Bille Troelsen, Kendall Paul Graham, G Selwitz, Kāwika Kolomona Kamake'e'āina, Lars Peter Jespersen, Cecilie Nygård (Eliasson), Loyd Alan Newman, Fritz Bekkadal, Loryn Clark, Knut Einar Mattias Stangenberg, Laurel Judith Logan, Jan-Cedric Hansen, Johannes Rye Røste, Pablo Fernando Rafael Romero Guerrero, Kenneth Lin Basta, Kenneth Dean FORTIE, Karlo Krogh Hansen, Pentti Aleksi Пентти Алексей Röppänen / Рëппянен, Флегондович, Hans Ihringsjö (Innala), Stein Djupmork, Daniel Dupree Walton, Henning Christiansen, Rolf Henning Hansvoll, Cameron Robert Culbertson, Håkon Bjordal Vinje, Jon Arild Torp, Anne M Berge, Stanley Welsh Duke, Jr., Susanne Ingegerd Johansson, Roland Olov Ernfrid Lundqvist, Jacqueli Charlene Finley, Marsha Gail Veazey (Kamish), Jacqueline Ann Hill, Jeffrey Burt Wigley, Mathias Ystrøm, Svenn Justinussen, D Daniel, Paul Østergaard Sørensen, John Terje Aartun, Rolf Klaus Mueller, MRA, Keith A Cordova, Gøril Steffensen, Kåre Tofte, Rune Aas, Dennis Harold Cloukey, Scott David Hibbard, A. Kihlström, Sarabeth Burns, Lars-Olof Löthwall, Jan Olof Lötvall, Roger Allen COOK, Myrna Huthmacher (Leonard), (C), Ida Marie Gonzales Jenssen, Kathleen Ann Jenema, Jongeward, Elizabeth Olson, Douglas John Nimmo, Robert Mitchell "Cook" Awalt, Thomas Nordli Andersen, Raymond Lian, Jonas Angshed, Poul Rahbek, Elizabeth Anne Gern, Terje Stene, Karen Amanda Tjelta, Janice Carol Dehod, Thomas Mark Clifford, Peo PerOlov Victor Fällmar, Benjamin Nathaniel Kersey, Wenche Vetlesen (Storholm), Beki Fierro, Torri Signar Thomsen, Kent Fobian, William Harden Waesche, Jr., Felicia Ladora Housley Clark, Finn Høydal, David Prins, .Michael Katting, Liana Sonja Foxvog, Nancy Helen Fetterly, Terry James Copeland, Øyvind Bischoff Riis Mangerud, Trine Camilla Rygh, Lúcia Pilla Damasio, Leslie Carroll Sholly, Jason Scott Wills, Peter Nonboe Linde, Crystal Kay Wriser, Robert Walter Conrad, Arthur Jackson, Göran Normann, Jakob pultz christensen, Jennifer Dongvillo Archibald, Steven Roger Nelson, Tiffany Baker, Catherine "Erin" Serafina Liora Spiceland (Pinder), Hans-Petter Nilsen, Sierra Taylor Maciorowski, Denise Unander, Robert Lyman Hults, Ken Rice, Thomas M Loarie, II, Richard Eric Dickinson (Kuhlmey), Richard Arthur Neary, Alexander Sjöström, Glenn Ivar Østen, Robert J Hoenig, Martin Severin Eriksen, Amber Leigh Coponiti, Børre Bekkelien, Christina Marie Tettleton, Anthony Wade James, Eva Fuhre Bratvold, Harald Tveit Alvestrand, Geoffrey David Trowbridge, Kim Thorvald Metso, Jerri Neptune, Per Holden, Robert Gerald Teeter, Douglas Nicholls "Doug" Robinson, Bo Garsteen, Marianne Øien, martin nunn, Niels Mortensen, Mihály László FARKAS, Uni Sternsdorf, Messina Burke, Shirley Gail Neil, Janice Weeks Hollenczer, Nancy Ellen Ferguson, Clive Graham Pugh, Einar Michael Hay-Hansson, Christian Welle, Thomas Alf Stigmarker, Tørres Sande, Russell Shane Kirby, Jan Wallentinsen, Lyndsey Rae Snedeger, Enrique Caballero Peraza, Philip David Reid Castleman, Kimberly Ann Coppenrath, Iain Mckenzie Millar, Tormod Engebu, Annette Madelene Sundström, John Cyrus Gilbreath, V, Patrick John Janis, Grant David Meadors, Jahn Edgar Michelsen, Brandt Joseph Gibson, Judith "Judi" Elaine McKee, Dennis Bruce Aubrey, Tom Hafnor Winters, Rachel Dawn Niebergal, Justin Cleve de Beauharnais Swanström, Rolf Inge Holden, Erik Meldal-Johnsen, Crystal Ritter, Joseph Frederick Strausman, André Maegaard Dørlit, Rhonda-Lee Allen Barber (Bowen), U.E., Claus Hegelund Skaarup, Lars Brodd, Jessica Tighe, Morten Kalmar, Erik TJ Stannow Lind, Jerome Papa, Siff Lillian Elena Skovenborg, Hans Kjetil Hommo, Michael Sortomme, Jemma Parker, Adrienne Virginia Soto, Eldon Lester Clark, Deborah Leann Clark, Donna Tompkins, Virgil Anthony Renz, Judith Anne Brown, Michael Waller, Marie Lou Yakim, Vaughn Henderson, Stéphane Pierre Édouard Chappellier, Aske Johnny Cederfeld Lundsten, Kenneth Svensson, Astrid Lundvall Sivertstøl, Trine Ervik Ellefsen, Kaylene Jenkins (Hansen), Enn Olavi Paadimeister, Hilde Beate Pedersen, Svante Martin Julius, Kai Birger Birkrem, Per Rostgaard Rostgaard Evald, Donald Bozarth, steinar birkrem, Jostein Nydal, Anne-Mette Andersen, Jacob Nørhaven Larsen, Arnhildur Ásdís Kolbeins, Tore Sande Schmidt, Eilef Sunde, Olov Jan, Gösta Sundin, Michelle Renee Waite, Gene, Ola Andreas Uhrqvist, Naja Klemmensen, Karen Reed Levang, Daniel Mark Christensen, Aslaug Elisabeth Vikhagen Lyngstad, Tor- Eric Mastø, Roger Jacobs, William Robert Taylor, Sr, Susanne Eva Ingegerd Kristina Lindén, Arne Tjølsen, Linda Solberg, Ester Indal, Bent Martin Engebakken, Mischa Renae Endicott (Pine), Derek Daniel Giedd, Mikael Gren, Robert Spencer, Per Skulason, Mats Engdal Johansen, Åsa Teresia Elisabet Alderlöf, Jonah Lynn Slaton, Sebastian Sjöman Martin, Ulrika Martin, Kristin Potter Ramirez, Christer Byklum, denise jo kinsey, espen Andrè hansen, Torbjörn Åke Norgren, Josefin Alma Hedwig Nohrborg, Henriette Sevelsted Berthelsen, Mikael Sørensen, Jonas Thornberg Poulsen, Karl Nordström, Mogens Finn kjærsdam, Sveneric Rosell og Axel Kok-Jensen
Kurator:
Flemming Allan Funch

Private User
6/23/2013 at 2:08 PM

And your point is?

6/23/2013 at 2:15 PM

Hello Peder

Regarding Thyra Danebod,the only know source about Thyra Danebod is that she is mentioned on the Jellinge stone. I agree that it is must unlikely that she is a daughter of Harald Klak.

Harald Klak however might have had a daughter Thyrni I could imagine that is why there might be a misunderstanding that some belive that she is Thyra Danebod, I agree with you that it can't be the case.

It is quiet easy to confuse the early english kings or chieftains, so I have to look a little closer to the reign of Wessex and Kent before I agree with you that her father was Edward the Elder.

Æthelred had huges problems with Danish vikings and died in battle 871, so your conclussion is to my belive the most accurate. as Edward the Elder lived 874 -924 Thyra as you list it is from 898-950 therefore Æthelered also is excluded and Edward the Elder fits nicely into the equation.

It is not uncommon that peace for political reason wás optained by marriage Edward defeated the Danish vikings in 917 and if he had a daughter Thyra which I do not know, she could have been given away in marriage to a Viking chief then both parts will benefite from the alliance.

But still the only source is the Jelling stone, and SAXO, and we have to rememeber SAXO was born almost 200 yers later than these events, that could sugest that he might not be as accurate as one might want him to be as he had to trust old storries and sages also he tend to glorryfie the Danes, can't blame him for that though ,-)

Kind regards
Per Skulason

6/23/2013 at 2:52 PM

Hello Per,

Very nice of you to dig into this issue, which I would really like to get sorted out.

@ Harald Alvestrand, you are asking for sources and then referring to different Wikipedia pages. Very often Wikipedia is not a very trustful source, but sometimes there is some truth in what is written (I simply had to mention this when speaking of sources).

Anyway, when I check the different pages for Thyra on Wikipedia, they differ, most notably when comparing the Norwegian and the Danish/English pages.

The Danish as well as the English wikipedia pages gives (in my eyes) an explanation that seems reasonable. The Norwegian wikipedia does not seem very fond of Saxo, and states that Thyra was the daughter of Harald Klak. A statement I doubt is based on reasonable sources, I mean, why should Snorre be a better source than Saxo?: "Uansett riktighet er Snorre langt mer troverdig enn Saxo.". http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyra_Danebod

"Tyra har blitt referert til som en kvinne med stor klokskap. Den eneste skriftlige kilden som bekrefter henne som noe annet en sagndronning er tekstene på runesteinene på Jellinge. Tilnavnet «Danebod» er avledet av de to siste ord på «Den lille Jellingsteinen»: «Danmarks bod». Det er likevel noe usikkert om teksten henviser til henne eller Gorm, og faktisk også hva ordet betyr. Da Gorm reiste steinen som minne over Tyra må man gå ut fra at hun døde før ham, altså en gang før år 958. Ut ifra det kan har man antatt at hun ble født helt i begynnelsen av 900-tallet, men vi vet lite om hennes opprinnelse. Det er motstridende opptegnelser om hennes foreldre. Saxo Grammaticus sier at hun var datter av «Æthelred, konge av England», hvilket i så fall må ha vært Ethelred av Wessex, men denne informasjonen regnes ikke som sannsynlig eller troverdig. Snorre Sturlasson, som skrev over 300 år etter at Tyra levde, mener at hennes far var en konge eller jarl av Jylland eller kanskje Holstein (som i dag er et område i Nordtyskland) og het Harald Klakk Halvdansson. Uansett riktighet er Snorre langt mer troverdig enn Saxo."

Here is the English Wikipedia about Thyra:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyra

"Accounts of Thyra's parentage are late, contradictory and chronologically dubious. Saxo holds she was the daughter of Æthelred, King of England (usually identified with Æthelred of Wessex), while Jómsvíkinga saga and Snorri's Heimskringla say her father was a king or jarl of Jutland or Holstein called Harald Klak.

Saxo claims Thyra was the daughter of English king Æthelred of Wessex, who also had a son called Æthelstan. Æthelstan was neglected in his father's will to the benefit of Harald Bluetooth. The king of Norway found it appalling that such a fool should get such a reward, and hence attacked England, where Æthelstan immediately surrendered. Shortly after both the king of Norway and Æthelstan die and Norway and England goes to the son of the late king of Norway - Håkon.

Here is the Danish version:
"Saxo lader Thyra være datter af den engelske konge Æthelred af Wessex (Edelradus) som også havde en søn Æthelstan. Æthelstan bliver forbigået i sin fars testamente til fordel for Harald Blåtand. Den norske konge "syntes at det var kreperligt at dette vældige rige skulle tilfalde en så tåbelig person" og angriber England, hvor Æthelstan straks overgiver sig. Hellere den norske konge end den grusomme Harald. Da både den norske konge og Æthelstan dør kort efter tilfalder både Norge og England den norske konges søn Håkon.

Saxos historie passer godt med den engelske kong Æthelstan the Glorious som regerede fra 924 til 939. Han var dog ikke søn af Æthelred (af Wessex 865 til 871), men af Edward den Ældre (899 til 924), men han blev opfostret hos sin faster Æthelfled, som var gift med en anden Æthelred, jarlen af Mercia, der således var Æthelstans fosterfar. Da Edward døde blev Æthelstan anerkendt som konge i Mercia, efter sin faster Æthelflæd, og senere også i Wessex. Harald Hårfagers søn Håkon blev opfostret ved Æthelstans hof, som led i en fredsaftale, så han passer også ind i Saxos historie.

Æthelstan og hans far Edward var flittige til at pleje internationale og dynastiske forbindelser gennem giftermål. En af Æthelstans søstre blev i 926 gift med Sigtrygg Caech, som var konge af Dublin og York, en halvsøster, Eadgyth, blev gift med Otto 1. kejser af det tysk-romerske rige, en anden, Edgiva, med Karl den Enfoldige, konge af Frankrig, en tredje, Eadhild, med Hugo den Store, greve af Paris, en fjerde med Boleslaus 2. af Bøhmen og måske blev en femte gift med skjalden Egil Skallagrimson. Det er vel næppe utænkeligt at Thyra kunne være uægte datter af Edward den Ældre?[Kilde mangler] og endnu en af Æthelstans halvsøstre. En forbindelse til det danske kongehus ville give rigtig god mening for en "Europas svigerfar" som Edward, med alle de problemer angelsakserne havde med danskerne i England. Det er vel tilgiveligt at Saxo tilsyneladende tager fejl af Æthelstans fars og fosterfars navne."

The accounts of Saxo fit well with the English king Æthelstan the Glorious, who reigned from 924 to 939. However, he was not the son of Æthelred af Wessex (865 til 871), but Edward the Older (899 til 924), but he was raised by his father's sister Æthelfled, who was married with another Æthelred, the earl of Mercia, who as such was the fosterfather of Æthelstan. When Edward died, Æthelstan was recognised as the king of Mercia, after his father's sister, and later also of Wessex. The king of Norway, Harald Haarfager's son Håkon, was raised at the court of Æthelstans, as part of a peace agreement, so he fits well into the tales told by Saxo."

Thank you for helping me out on this one!

Kind regards,
Peder Dahlman

6/23/2013 at 2:54 PM

The link for the Danish Wikipedia:
http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyra_Dannebod

6/23/2013 at 3:07 PM

Hmpf, this small message-box is almost impossible to use...

Here is the last comment as it should have been (replacing the last two ones I added).

-----

Hello Per,
Very nice of you to dig into this issue, which I would really like to get sorted out.

@ Harald Alvestrand, you are asking for sources and then referring to different Wikipedia pages. Very often Wikipedia is not a very trustful source, but sometimes there is some truth in what is written (I simply had to mention this when speaking of sources).

Anyway, when I check the different pages for Thyra on Wikipedia, they differ, most notably when comparing the Norwegian and the Danish/English pages.

The Danish as well as the English wikipedia pages gives (in my eyes) an explanation that seems reasonable. The Norwegian wikipedia does not seem very fond of Saxo, and states that Thyra was the daughter of Harald Klak. A statement I doubt is based on reasonable sources, I mean, why should Snorre be a better source than Saxo?: "Uansett riktighet er Snorre langt mer troverdig enn Saxo.".

The Norwegian version:
http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyra_Danebod

"Tyra har blitt referert til som en kvinne med stor klokskap. Den eneste skriftlige kilden som bekrefter henne som noe annet en sagndronning er tekstene på runesteinene på Jellinge. Tilnavnet «Danebod» er avledet av de to siste ord på «Den lille Jellingsteinen»: «Danmarks bod». Det er likevel noe usikkert om teksten henviser til henne eller Gorm, og faktisk også hva ordet betyr. Da Gorm reiste steinen som minne over Tyra må man gå ut fra at hun døde før ham, altså en gang før år 958. Ut ifra det kan har man antatt at hun ble født helt i begynnelsen av 900-tallet, men vi vet lite om hennes opprinnelse. Det er motstridende opptegnelser om hennes foreldre. Saxo Grammaticus sier at hun var datter av «Æthelred, konge av England», hvilket i så fall må ha vært Ethelred av Wessex, men denne informasjonen regnes ikke som sannsynlig eller troverdig. Snorre Sturlasson, som skrev over 300 år etter at Tyra levde, mener at hennes far var en konge eller jarl av Jylland eller kanskje Holstein (som i dag er et område i Nordtyskland) og het Harald Klakk Halvdansson. Uansett riktighet er Snorre langt mer troverdig enn Saxo."

Here is the English Wikipedia about Thyra:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyra

"Accounts of Thyra's parentage are late, contradictory and chronologically dubious. Saxo holds she was the daughter of Æthelred, King of England (usually identified with Æthelred of Wessex), while Jómsvíkinga saga and Snorri's Heimskringla say her father was a king or jarl of Jutland or Holstein called Harald Klak.

Saxo claims Thyra was the daughter of English king Æthelred of Wessex, who also had a son called Æthelstan. Æthelstan was neglected in his father's will to the benefit of Harald Bluetooth. The king of Norway found it appalling that such a fool should get such a reward, and hence attacked England, where Æthelstan immediately surrendered. Shortly after both the king of Norway and Æthelstan die and Norway and England goes to the son of the late king of Norway - Håkon.

The accounts of Saxo fit well with the English king Æthelstan the Glorious, who reigned from 924 to 939. However, he was not the son of Æthelred af Wessex (865 til 871), but Edward the Older (899 til 924), but he was raised by his father's sister Æthelfled, who was married with another Æthelred, the earl of Mercia, who as such was the fosterfather of Æthelstan. When Edward died, Æthelstan was recognised as the king of Mercia, after his father's sister, and later also of Wessex. The king of Norway, Harald Haarfager's son Håkon, was raised at the court of Æthelstans, as part of a peace agreement, so he fits well into the tales told by Saxo."

Here is the Danish version:
http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyra_Dannebod

"Saxo lader Thyra være datter af den engelske konge Æthelred af Wessex (Edelradus) som også havde en søn Æthelstan. Æthelstan bliver forbigået i sin fars testamente til fordel for Harald Blåtand. Den norske konge "syntes at det var kreperligt at dette vældige rige skulle tilfalde en så tåbelig person" og angriber England, hvor Æthelstan straks overgiver sig. Hellere den norske konge end den grusomme Harald. Da både den norske konge og Æthelstan dør kort efter tilfalder både Norge og England den norske konges søn Håkon.

Saxos historie passer godt med den engelske kong Æthelstan the Glorious som regerede fra 924 til 939. Han var dog ikke søn af Æthelred (af Wessex 865 til 871), men af Edward den Ældre (899 til 924), men han blev opfostret hos sin faster Æthelfled, som var gift med en anden Æthelred, jarlen af Mercia, der således var Æthelstans fosterfar. Da Edward døde blev Æthelstan anerkendt som konge i Mercia, efter sin faster Æthelflæd, og senere også i Wessex. Harald Hårfagers søn Håkon blev opfostret ved Æthelstans hof, som led i en fredsaftale, så han passer også ind i Saxos historie.

Æthelstan og hans far Edward var flittige til at pleje internationale og dynastiske forbindelser gennem giftermål. En af Æthelstans søstre blev i 926 gift med Sigtrygg Caech, som var konge af Dublin og York, en halvsøster, Eadgyth, blev gift med Otto 1. kejser af det tysk-romerske rige, en anden, Edgiva, med Karl den Enfoldige, konge af Frankrig, en tredje, Eadhild, med Hugo den Store, greve af Paris, en fjerde med Boleslaus 2. af Bøhmen og måske blev en femte gift med skjalden Egil Skallagrimson. Det er vel næppe utænkeligt at Thyra kunne være uægte datter af Edward den Ældre?[Kilde mangler] og endnu en af Æthelstans halvsøstre. En forbindelse til det danske kongehus ville give rigtig god mening for en "Europas svigerfar" som Edward, med alle de problemer angelsakserne havde med danskerne i England. Det er vel tilgiveligt at Saxo tilsyneladende tager fejl af Æthelstans fars og fosterfars navne."

Thank you for helping me out on this one!

Kind regards,
Peder Dahlman

6/23/2013 at 5:56 PM

Considering sources I have given this issue a second thought.

Can it be that Æthelred II (978-1016) is Thyra Danebod’s father?

Perhaps Saxo was not that wrong, after all?

I suggest that this might explain the word Danebod, as being connected/related to Danelag.

Read more about Æthelred II here and let me know what you think:
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLAND,%20AngloSaxon%20&%20Dan...

Respectfully,
Peder Dahlman

6/23/2013 at 6:22 PM

Bah! This small message-box is really disturbing and hard to use.

Anyhow, here is something else to consider, which can be more true than the last message I posted (see above) as I find it unlikely Æthelred II could have been the father of Thyra considering the years he was living.

The second suggestion I got is Æthelred (-912), Ealdorman of Mercia, ruling in the part of Mercia not ruled by the Danes:
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLAND,%20AngloSaxon%20nobility.ht...

This might explain why the father of Thyra is considered being "the king of the English".

Kind regards,
Peder Dahlman

P.S. Would it be possible to make this very tiny message-box a little bit larger? D.S.

Private User
6/23/2013 at 11:45 PM

Peder Dahlman,
Look at the right hand corner of the message box. There is a little arrow made of dots. You can 'grab' it with the left hand side of your mouse and pull it down making the message box as large as you like.

Also, if you find that the letters are too small or too large, you can make them bigger by holding Ctrl and rolling the scroll wheel on your mouse up or down :-)

6/23/2013 at 11:57 PM

@Elna, of course Saxo is a source! My query was triggered by the fact that I don't have a copy; Project Gutenberg is a very good one!

So we have one primary source (the Jelling stone) that doesn't give her parentage and two secondary sources (Saxo and Snorre), which are roughly contemporary with each other (Saxo died 1220, Snorre died 1241) and don't agree. It's fairly common that Norwegians tend to believe Snorre and Danes tend to believe Saxo - which says more about the readers than about the sources :-)

Wikipedias are tertiary sources (using Wikipedia's classification system) - they are useful for seeing what others have written about the primary and secondary sources, shouldn't be used as "facts" themselves, but they frequently contain good pointers to sources.

So far I have heard 3 candidates for the identity of Saxo's "Ethelred" in the rich set of sources for England's history - neither of which was king "of England", because England was not united at the time.
There's only one Harald Klak, but that's because we have no source except Snorre for his existence (I think).

Summarizing these candidates and the reasons to believe all of them in the Thyra record on Geni is a very good step to take, I think.

6/24/2013 at 12:09 AM

@ Ann Vermeulen:

Thank you for telling me about how to expand the message box! (I guess I was too tired to figure it out, in the middle of the night).

Thankfully,
Peder Dahlman

6/24/2013 at 12:19 AM

Private User
What software are you using that gives you the ability to resize the input box? I certainly cannot do so.

Peder Dahlman
Type your message in another program, Word perhaps. When you are happy with it just copy and paste to Geni.

6/24/2013 at 12:46 AM

@ Harald Alvestrand:

I agree with you on the differences between many Danes and Norwegians about how they look at this issue. ;-)

So, here is an attempt to summarize what I have learned so far…

The only ’real’ sources is the Jellingstones in Denmark (even these are dis disputed and discussed).

According to Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (Medieval Lands), Tyre Haraldsdotter is daughter of Harald Gormsen, which means Tyre Haraldsdotter is granddaughter of Gorm ”the Old” (son of Hardeknud) and Tyre Danebod. Furthermore, FMG states that Gorm was dead before 950, and Tyre Danebod, his wife, dies in ~925/935.

On the other hand is Snorre telling about Tyra as the daughter of Harald Klak. I guess this is a source as good as any (I have got two different sources of Snorre and they differ slightly, depending on which edition we are talking about – the differences are not that big though).

Then there is this third candidate, namely Æthelred Ealdorman of Mercia (?-912), ruling in the part of Mercia that was not ruled by the Danes. He can be considered being ”the king of the English” as he was not yet defeated by the Danes and hence was still ruling a kingdom outside the control of the Danes. Æthelred Ealdorman of Mercia ruled under Alfred King of Wessex, who was his overlord. The age (years) of Æthelred Ealdorman of Mercia corresponds with when Thyra is considered to have been alive.

In the light of this, Æthelred Ealdorman of Mercia might perhaps be considered to be be father of Thyra Danebod? Perhaps should the focus be on ’English’ and not on ’England’?

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/DENMARK.htm#HaraldIdied986987A
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/DENMARK.htm#Gormdiedbefore950A
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLAND,%20AngloSaxon%20nobility.ht...

(FMG is referring to different sources - see their footnotes).

I guess this is as far as it goes (so far). If anyone else got any ideas or sources, please lets hear them, I am all ears!

Respectfully,
Peder Dahlman

6/24/2013 at 4:42 AM

Yes, there seems to be at least 2 Tyras in that line.

Tyra the granddaughter of Tyra is here on Geni:

Thyra Haraldsdottir

The Danish wikipedia has one interesting statement: That we know the burial chamber of Gorm the Old, and that the wood has been dated using tree-ring counting.... so this is one of the few deaths in this part of history we have a good date for: 958.

And from the Jelling stones, we know Thyra died before him.

6/24/2013 at 5:09 AM

Dendrochronology is indeed an interesting scientific method.

Fore those interested, please check these links:

http://web.utk.edu/~grissino/principles.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrochronology

Kindly,
Peder Dahlman

6/25/2013 at 3:47 PM

There is a lot of speculations, my best guess to a blood line could be as described bellow. We know she is a Haraldsottir.

I know of one Harald that at some point is belived to have had a Dainsh wife, Harald Fairhair.
.
From Wikipidia :"The only[citation needed] contemporary sources mentioning him are the two skaldic poems Haraldskvæði and Glymdrápa, which have been attributed to Þorbjörn Hornklofi or alternatively (in the case of the first poem) to Þjóðólfr of Hvinir. The first poem has only been preserved in fragments in 13th century Kings' sagas. It describes life at Harald's court, mentions that he took a Danish wife, and that he won a battle at Hafrsfjord. The second relates a series of battles Harald won. The facts offered by the poems may be scarce but it is a good source of information."

We know that the Jellingstone that Harald Bluetooth had made, mentions Denmark and Norway as being a part of the Kingdom.

Haraldr kunungR bað gørva kumbl þǿsi æft Gōrm, faður sinn, ok æft Þōrvē, mōður sīna, sā Haraldr es sēR vann Danmǫrk alla ok Norveg ok dani gærði krīstna.

Oversættelse

Kong Harald bød gøre disse kumler efter Gorm sin fader og efter Thyra sin moder - den Harald, som vandt sig hele Danmark og Norge og gjorde danerne kristne

Harald Fairhair the Norwegian King had lots of sons and daugthers with different wifes, the total of desendance is not really known. Thyra Danebod is mentioned to bee of a noble bloodline. Therfore my suggestions could be that she is a Daughter of Harald Fairhair.

It is only a suggestion or if you like a guess, because the only source is still the Jellingestones.

Kindly
Per Skulason

6/25/2013 at 4:59 PM

@ Per Skulason:

Thank you!

I find your suggestion reasonable.

Considering when Harald Hairfair lived and ruled, and also which areas he was the ruler of, your suggestion makes sense, it really does.

Respectfully and thankfully,
Peder Dahlman

6/25/2013 at 10:47 PM

Hm. Harald is a rather common name, and Harald Fairhair was a main concern of Snorre Sturlasson - most of his sons and daughters are only known from that source.

It seems unreasonable to assume that Snorre would say that Thyra was a daughter of Harald Klak if she was in fact the daughter of Harald Fairhair.

6/25/2013 at 11:46 PM

@Harald

It is onlys a suggestion, If we have to concider Harald Klak then Thyra is a lot older than exspectet we know as i wrote earlyer that Harald Klak had a daughter Thyrni and there might be a mix between thyrni and Thyra.
If that not is the case then Harald Klak would die or be born later than we exspect:

Harald Klak II Halfdansson, King of Jylland (Haithabu)

I agree Harald was and is Common name, espicially in the Vikingage but I have a hard time seing Thyra as being a daugther of Harald Klak, she could be of the lineage after Harald Klak but I do not belive that she is a daughter of Harald Klak.

Harald Fairhair, is know to be in part of Sweden and also raiding at the shores of England and Scotland. It would therfore not be unthinkable that he had conections with danish Viking Chiefstains.

Because of the Stones in Jelling and the wooden Church also found in Jelling where the stonechurch later was build on top of the old woodenchurch, the age of Thyra and Gorm is within a reasonable timeline that rules out Harald Klak as being the father of Thyra unless there is a later Harald Klak which is a decendance from Harald Klak lets call him Harald Klak I abt 800-844, Thyra Danebod is belivede to be born Abt 900 and dies before abt 958.
I do not know if the Viking had the ability to freeze sperm and later use it for artificial insemination, but i find it just as unlikely as Harald Klak I being father of Thyra.

Kilndly
Per SKulason

6/26/2013 at 12:16 AM

@Harald Alvastrand

Forgot something, I can make an explanation for the reason why i have suggested a connect between Harald Faihair and Thyra Danebod as being a daughter, please remember it is only a guess, because the Jelling stone is the only place she is mentioned.

Harald Klak had a daughter Ingeborg "Tyrne" Haraldsdotter who married Sigurd «Hart» Hjort (Helgesson), king of Ringerike, they had a daughter Ragnhild "the Wise" Sigurdsdatter who married Halvdan «the Black» Svarte (Gudrødsson), King in Agder / Vestfold / Sogn They had a Son Harald (King of Norway) «Fairhair» Hårfagre (Halvdansson), I.

As you can see there is a bloodline between Harald Klak and Harald Fairhair, but I do not know if Harald Faihair had a daughter Þōrvē or Thyra, but it is not that unlikely, Snorre might have forgotten to write that Thyra is a desendance from Harald Klak insted of letting Harald Klak be her father, he might have been a great great great grandfather.

Just a guess.

Kindly Per Skulason

Private User
6/26/2013 at 12:34 AM

Not forgotten, - it is probably a "lost in translation" case, - in many sagas when a person is described as a "son or daughter of" it was meant as "a direct descendant of". There are many places in the tree where we probably are missing some generations.

6/26/2013 at 4:09 AM

@Bjørn

I agree translation is difficult also who are direct desendant of whom.

As you know Bjørn there is always reason to be carefull when we are that far back in time as the sources are very limited.
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For myself I am not against that Harald Klak could be the father of Thyra I just find it verry unlikely that it is the case and therfore I try imagine ( have to do that because of the lack of source) how the lineage could be if Harald Klak is involved as Snorre mentions, according to Harald Alvestrand who is pretty sure Harald klak is the father of Thyra end of storrie.
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Given the tension between the Swedes, Norwegian and danes at the time, I think it is also important to consider how alliances might have been obtained through marriage, promiss of great welt and land.
I state that it is onlys suggestion and a guess that Thyra and Harald Fairhair might be related, but i find it more belivable than Thyra schould be of an English chietain or King as Saxo belive, can't ignore it though because Saxo is an early source and if that is the main belive between schoolars and geneologist that it is facts, then it is not important what I think or others for that matter because the storrie is told. A mainstream bellive is, that historie is unchangeable because what is told is the truth, and the winner told the storrie or the person that was payed to tell the storrie on behalf of any given ruller.
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The only think we can do is question the facts and then maybe try to suggest that there is other possibilitis and history might not be that accurate as everybody think.

I am sure the Harald Fairhair idea is not true but it is my best guess of a connection to Thyra Hararldsdottir

Kind regards
Per Skulason

6/27/2013 at 1:38 AM

Intellectual honesty?

Since there is uncertainty about Thyra Danebod's parentage, at least it should read in the main profile and be clearly stated that it is NOT certain who is Thyra's father and mother.

As it is now, it seems like the lineage is only or mainly based on Snorre Sturlasson. In my book, given this is the case, it's a rather a 'one-eyed' and intellectually restricted point of view. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I've been asked to present sources at the start of this discussion. So I did.

I can't help asking - why shouldn't this go for all? At least when there's a discussion and different opinions about the parentage?

Respectfully,
Peder Dahlman

6/27/2013 at 6:28 AM

Peder,

I agree. There are several theories of varying qualities. It is right to show on Geni that her parents are not certain.

The profile is not locked. There has been a discussion. Now it's time to summarize the different theories on the profile. Who wants to do that?

I added a curator note. That means Geni changed the curator to be me now. I sent the former curator Flemming Funch a message inviting him to take it back. If he does, then good. If not, I don't want to be a curator in this area. it would be better if one of the Scandinavian curators takes over. Harald or Bjørn?

6/27/2013 at 6:36 AM

One more theory. I thought I had decided (for myself) that she was daughter of Aethelred of Mercia. I was very sure that's what I thought, but no. When I got time to check my notes this morning, my theory was that she was a daughter of Haraldr parcus by Aelfgifu of Wessex (daughter of Aethelred I).

I made this note to myself:

The Danish historian Saxo wrote that she "surpassed other women in seriousness and shrewdness, and laid the condition on her suitor (Gorm) that she would not marry him till she had received Denmark as a dowry. The compact was made between them, and she was betrothed to Gorm."

Her parentage is uncertain. Saxo said she was daughter of Aethelred of England, but he must have been mistaken. Aethelred I lived too early and Aethelred II lived too late to have been her father. The Icelandic historian Snorri Sturluson said she was a daughter of Klak-Haraldr, but he died in 845, a generation before she was born.

Because she was a Christian, she was more likely to have been English than Danish. It has been plausibly suggested that she was a daughter of Edward the Elder, who married his daughters into other royal families on the European continent. As further support for this theory, the Danes in England submitted to Edward the Elder, and it is likely that a marriage alliance between the English and Danish royal families would have been arranged at the same time.

Nevertheless, I cannot accept this theory -- her name does not begin with the Ae/E that was almost the rule for the royal family of Wessex. Moreover, if Gorm's mother was Aelfgifu of Wessex, then Gorm himself was a kinsman of Edward the Elder and the likelihood that he made an English marriage in connection with the submission of the Danes in England is diminished.

I probably have more detailed notes in my files with sources, but this should be enough for now.

6/27/2013 at 7:04 AM
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